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Is British Airways really just London Airways?

Is British Airways really just London Airways?

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Old Jun 26, 19, 5:36 am
  #31  
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Coming back to the title, BA operates from City, Heathrow and Gatwick. Geographically Gatwick is not in London, so calling it London Airways would offend the people of Sussex.
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Old Jun 26, 19, 5:38 am
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Originally Posted by James Halliwell View Post
Call me Bias, but it's interesting to read this continuous revolving topic.

It's true, BA can't operate from the regions profitably........ but MAN isn't a regional airport
Hi Bias, nice to meet you.

Manchester is in the regions, it has an airport, what sort of airport is it then?
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Old Jun 26, 19, 5:45 am
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Originally Posted by Deltus View Post
Hi Bias, nice to meet you.

Manchester is in the regions, it has an airport, what sort of airport is it then?
Errr, an international one?
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Old Jun 26, 19, 5:50 am
  #34  
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Originally Posted by NickB View Post
Unless, I am mistaken,it is a little more than one a day (10/week), But, in any event, this might have something to do with the fact that there are trains between Leeds and London every half hour that do the trip in a little over 2 hrs. The vast majority of the traffic between the Leeds Bradford area and the London area is by train rather than by plane.
Totally agree - Talking of which.... the obvious bit missing in the discussion (or in the landscape for that matter) is HS2. In principle at least, it would make a lot more sense to have Heathrow as "The UK airpor" between 0.5-2 hours of most large English cities and barely more to Scotland than have BA duplicate efforts by starting lots of long haul flights from MAN or BHX. The reason why, say, AF can afford not to fly at all to Lille or Strasbourg or for that matter Brussels from Paris is that it codeshares on fast nonstop trains from those cities to CDG. For all practical purposes, you could make the argument that CDG is Lille's second (or rather first) airport. The UK is a lot smaller than France in terms of surface area and in practice that situation could be true of most of the country's largest cities.
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Old Jun 26, 19, 6:02 am
  #35  
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Originally Posted by orbitmic View Post
Totally agree - Talking of which.... the obvious bit missing in the discussion (or in the landscape for that matter) is HS2. In principle at least, it would make a lot more sense to have Heathrow as "The UK airpor" between 0.5-2 hours of most large English cities and barely more to Scotland than have BA duplicate efforts by starting lots of long haul flights from MAN or BHX. The reason why, say, AF can afford not to fly at all to Lille or Strasbourg or for that matter Brussels from Paris is that it codeshares on fast nonstop trains from those cities to CDG. For all practical purposes, you could make the argument that CDG is Lille's second (or rather first) airport. The UK is a lot smaller than France in terms of surface area and in practice that situation could be true of most of the country's largest cities.
Indeed but what makes this possible is the integration of the TGV station to the airport at CDG, which is something that has been ruled out in the case of HS2, since you will have to get off the train at Old Oak Common, then take Crossrail to Heathrow. The UK does not do integrated transport and intermodality.
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Old Jun 26, 19, 6:04 am
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I may be wrong, but I thought I read a while ago about restarting some BHX operations. Does anyone know if BA still plan on operating anything out of BHX?
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Old Jun 26, 19, 6:12 am
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UK regions on KL into AMS versus BA into LHR

Originally Posted by mikem004 View Post
It surprises me that KLM can run three flights a day from LBA. But BA can manage only one!
Hence the London Airways tag...
Originally Posted by etiene View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but BA don't really offer "one-stop" pricing from domestic outstations - whereas KL/AF fares are generally similar for all UK origins [which [i]is priced as "ex-NL/FR" to entice people into the connecting itinerary].

I guess BA have a reason for doing this [possibly just lack of slots at LHR], but the lower volumes are presumably reflecting the fact that if you have to connect anyway, why not save money via AMS/CDG...?
KLM have a very impressive ex-UK operation covering 16 airports. Here are yesterday's ex-UK flights on KL into AMS.

Aberdeen ABZ: 2x 737, 3x Embraer, 5x Total
Birmingham BHX: 4x 737, 1x Embraer, 5x Total
Bristol BRS: 1x 737, 3x Embraer, 4x Total
Cardiff CWL: 0x 737, 3x Embraer, 3x Total
Durham Tees Valley MME: 0x 737, 3x Embraer, 3x Total
Edinburgh EDI: 4x 737, 0x Embraer, 4x Total
Belfast City BHD: 0x 737, 1x Embraer, 1x Total
Glasgow GLA: 3x 737, 0x Embraer, 3x Total
Humberside HUY: 0x 737, 3x Embraer, 3x Total
Inverness INV: 0x 737, 2x Embraer, 2x Total
Leeds Bradford LBA: 0x 737, 3x Embraer, 3x Total
London City LCY: 0x 737, 9x Embraer, 9x Total
London Heathrow LHR: 6x 737, 5x Embraer, 11x Total
Manchester MAN: 4x 737, 2x Embraer, 6x Total
Newcastle NCL: 3x 737, 1x Embraer, 4x Total
Norwich NWI: 0x 737, 4x Embraer, 4x Total

KLM operates 737-700s, 737-800s and 737-900s on UK routes which have broadly similar capacities to BA's A319, A320 and A321 fleet. However KL also has it's Cityhopper fleet of Embraer 175 & 190s which operate on lower demand, high yield routes (as well as some obvious LHR slot sitters) which have between 92 and 104 seats each.

If we look at BA, they have no (or minimal) spare slots at LHR to provide for extra UK domestic services. Even if more slots were to become available, The smallest plane in BA's LHR fleet is the A319 - which has 143/144 seats, allowing for 5 rows of CE, this means 133 or 134 sellable seats - substantially more than KL's modern Embraers.

Now, a third runway at LHR would open up a whole lot more slots, with some ringfenced for domestic services. Would BA be interested in running LHR routes to places like HUY and MME (maybe GCI too) if there were more slots available? Yields would be strong of course but the evidence of LBA suggests that BA would struggle to fill these routes using their current fleet. If U2 then start operating some of the juicer domestics (LHR-EDI especially), it could really put the squeeze on BA's domestic feeder network and make it harder to fill the existing planes. I read somewhere that the union agreement prevents BA CF from operating into LHR but maybe these are exactly the sort of planes that BA will need to operate on domestic routes if/when the third runway is built.

Just to comment on the pricing, KL's pricing can vary tremendously and in my experience can be extremely expensive to fly out of a business focused UK airport (HUY, MME) compared to a busier airport (NCL or MAN) as the smaller capacity routes do not seem to have that many tickets for sale in the cheaper ticket buckets (plus KL have no competition here). On these routes, point-to-point pricing into AMS can be horrendously expensive as well (MME-AMS-DUS return is normally 40% cheaper than MME-AMS).
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Old Jun 26, 19, 6:15 am
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Originally Posted by irishguy28 View Post
Over on the KLM forum, we've long been agitating for a KLM domestic network...




Well - that almost made me spit out my lunch. Good memory, I had totally forgotten this. and my predictions were clearly a little off. DUB and AGP still the only Ryanair routes AMS. Still, I've made it to GRQ from SEN

To get back on topic - agree with the comments from NickB and orbitmic. And KL Cityhopper did used to have some flights from RTM, including LHR.
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Old Jun 26, 19, 6:19 am
  #39  
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Originally Posted by NickB View Post
Indeed but what makes this possible is the integration of the TGV station to the airport at CDG, which is something that has been ruled out in the case of HS2, since you will have to get off the train at Old Oak Common, then take Crossrail to Heathrow. The UK does not do integrated transport and intermodality.
Indeed - and I can't think of a single country that does things like the UK wants to from that perspective (and we already have the comparison between, say, LTN on the one hand and MAN or LGW on the other hand. Gee, I wonder which works better...
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Old Jun 26, 19, 6:21 am
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Originally Posted by Shuttle_Endeavour View Post
Donít forget that BA did its attempt at the regions, in 1999, in low cost carrier form.
BA had been serving the regions a long time before 1999... There were separate "BA Manchester" and "BA Birmingham" aircraft (maybe more) in the 1980s. What is now T3 at MAN was initially the BA terminal.

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Old Jun 26, 19, 6:43 am
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@ tigertanaka - that sure is a helluva big operation that KL runs from the UK.

I guess UK Country Manager for KLM is a top-ranking role within their corporate structure !
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Old Jun 26, 19, 6:52 am
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Originally Posted by Leaping_Deere View Post
BA have invested in T5 and LHR slots, I just don't think they would look to change that, they still have a lot of 747's that need filling, only LHR can get that kind of traffic.

Personally I wouldn't mind the London centric policy if BA had genuine feeder flights from the regional airports to LHR, it's a market that the likes of KLM have had to themselves besides the token MAN,LBA & NCL routes. I mean KLM can make running 3 sometimes 4 flights a day from my local HUY to AMS pay, so surely their is business to be had with regionals.

Ive always assumed it because there isn't the runway capacity at LHR rather than commercial appetite.
I believe operation capacity of LHR will be mostly the reason. It has been suggested that BA will consider competing with KLM at HUY once the 3rd runway is complete. So, perhaps BA will increase their feeder operations with their 'BA Cityflyer' subsidiary, or maybe, with their own A319s?
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Old Jun 26, 19, 6:52 am
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Originally Posted by tigertanaka View Post
Just to comment on the pricing, KL's pricing can vary tremendously and in my experience can be extremely expensive to fly out of a business focused UK airport (HUY, MME) compared to a busier airport (NCL or MAN) as the smaller capacity routes do not seem to have that many tickets for sale in the cheaper ticket buckets (plus KL have no competition here). On these routes, point-to-point pricing into AMS can be horrendously expensive as well (MME-AMS-DUS return is normally 40% cheaper than MME-AMS).
That's fair - having seen some of the pricing out of NWI I can corroborate [oil travellers there, with no better options].

I was thinking more of the "nicking holidaymakers" business out of the larger cities like BHX, MAN, etc - i.e. long-haul connecting traffic. High fares direct to AMS are the expectation, in the absence of [and sometimes even in the persence of] direct competition. It's the one-stop options to places like SIN and HKG where, AFAIK, BA doesn't seem to compete on the basis of being a one stop option - unlike they clearly do from AMS, for instance.
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Old Jun 26, 19, 7:06 am
  #44  
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Originally Posted by subject2load View Post
@ tigertanaka - that sure is a helluva big operation that KL runs from the UK.
It also just reflects the very different kind of airlines that BA and KL are. Given the small size of the Netherlands, KL is crucially dependent on transfer traffic, so they have no choice than to go after that transfer traffic relentlessly and I suspect that their conception of an acceptable passenger yield is probably lower than for BA.
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Old Jun 26, 19, 7:10 am
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Originally Posted by etiene View Post
Britain just isn't big enough for a multi-hub long haul airline, and like it or not the short-haul operation only works as a mix of feeder traffic and O&D. Attempting anything different as a publically traded company would be irresponsible.
indeed. Plus nowhere else in the UK is economically productive enough to justify a separate hub - Manchester and surrounding regions arenít quite in the Munich and Bavaria league.
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