Jul 20, 2019, 3:27 am
Last edit by: corporate-wage-slave
Quick answers to FAQ:
Help! What do I do now?
Most importantly, don't panic and don't do anything in haste. Read these FAQ. Read the thread, particularly the posts starting from the time that the strike dates were announced. Identify your options. Think about what works for you. Then take action. If you do anything in haste, you may have thrown away good options, or you may have thrown away money that you needn't have spent.
NOTE: Some emails have been sent out by mistake notifying the cancellation of flights on 8 September and other dates. If your booking still looks OK in MMB then you don't need to take further action. A cancelled flight should be shown in MMB with struck-through text. If your flight details are not struck through, then it probably hasn't actually been cancelled. You could check ba.com to see whether BA is still taking reservations for the flight in question. If so, then the flight has not been cancelled. You may also try checking on ExpertFlyer, if you have access, to see whether your flight appears still to be operating and whether BA is still taking reservations. However, some afternoon/evening flights on 8 September have genuinely been cancelled. See main thread for details.
Has a strike been called yet?
Yes. BALPA, the pilots' union, has voted in favour of strike action, and the Court of Appeal has rejected BA's submission to have the poll set aside, so the legal process is now over. The two parties went back into talks after the legal proceedings and those talks were expected to continue into the week of 5 August.
BALPA on 23 Aug announced strikes on Monday 9 September Tuesday 10 September and Friday 27 September.
Any further strikes normally require 2 weeks notice under UK legislation.
What flights may be affected?
LHR and LGW based flights. Not LCY or STN flights. Both cabin and flight crew are in dispute with BA, but the pilots (captains, senior first officers, first officers) are closest to strike action.
How long would a strike last?
The initial strikes are for two days the a single day, with normal working in between. Any other strikes could be of any length. It would be rare in the UK for there to be a full time strike.
What would happen to my flights if it is a strike day?
A range of options have been announced, see post 1551 below for more information: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/brit...l#post31451055
and BA Trade Site guidance here: https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb...kba?faqid=7594
Rebooking is now allowed on Iberia, AA, Finnair, JAL and Qatar. Within Europe EI and Vueling are also allowed. This is for both revenue and redemption flights.
and the FAQ on BA.com here (this includes information on BA Holidays bookings which are substantially different): https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb...st-information
Can I do anything with an existing booking now?
Yes. Your options are different depending on whether your flights are currently showing as cancelled or not. See the links above.
What about Heathrow staff - aren't their strikes planned there too?
Yes there is a separate dispute at the moment between Heathrow Airport (HAL) and their staff such as those who operate the security checkpoints. See the separate thread on the issue.
Am I protected by EC261 if there is a problem?
You are always covered by the Right to Care provisions of Regulation EC261. You could potentially be able to claim compensation for delays, cancellations and downgrades caused by BA staff action too, but not for HAL strikes (for cancellations only if there is flight is less than 14 day’s notice). See the main EC261 thread in the BA Forum Dashboard.
Help! What do I do now?
Most importantly, don't panic and don't do anything in haste. Read these FAQ. Read the thread, particularly the posts starting from the time that the strike dates were announced. Identify your options. Think about what works for you. Then take action. If you do anything in haste, you may have thrown away good options, or you may have thrown away money that you needn't have spent.
NOTE: Some emails have been sent out by mistake notifying the cancellation of flights on 8 September and other dates. If your booking still looks OK in MMB then you don't need to take further action. A cancelled flight should be shown in MMB with struck-through text. If your flight details are not struck through, then it probably hasn't actually been cancelled. You could check ba.com to see whether BA is still taking reservations for the flight in question. If so, then the flight has not been cancelled. You may also try checking on ExpertFlyer, if you have access, to see whether your flight appears still to be operating and whether BA is still taking reservations. However, some afternoon/evening flights on 8 September have genuinely been cancelled. See main thread for details.
Has a strike been called yet?
Yes. BALPA, the pilots' union, has voted in favour of strike action, and the Court of Appeal has rejected BA's submission to have the poll set aside, so the legal process is now over. The two parties went back into talks after the legal proceedings and those talks were expected to continue into the week of 5 August.
BALPA on 23 Aug announced strikes on Monday 9 September Tuesday 10 September and Friday 27 September.
Any further strikes normally require 2 weeks notice under UK legislation.
What flights may be affected?
LHR and LGW based flights. Not LCY or STN flights. Both cabin and flight crew are in dispute with BA, but the pilots (captains, senior first officers, first officers) are closest to strike action.
How long would a strike last?
The initial strikes are for two days the a single day, with normal working in between. Any other strikes could be of any length. It would be rare in the UK for there to be a full time strike.
What would happen to my flights if it is a strike day?
A range of options have been announced, see post 1551 below for more information: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/brit...l#post31451055
and BA Trade Site guidance here: https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb...kba?faqid=7594
Rebooking is now allowed on Iberia, AA, Finnair, JAL and Qatar. Within Europe EI and Vueling are also allowed. This is for both revenue and redemption flights.
and the FAQ on BA.com here (this includes information on BA Holidays bookings which are substantially different): https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb...st-information
Can I do anything with an existing booking now?
Yes. Your options are different depending on whether your flights are currently showing as cancelled or not. See the links above.
What about Heathrow staff - aren't their strikes planned there too?
Yes there is a separate dispute at the moment between Heathrow Airport (HAL) and their staff such as those who operate the security checkpoints. See the separate thread on the issue.
Am I protected by EC261 if there is a problem?
You are always covered by the Right to Care provisions of Regulation EC261. You could potentially be able to claim compensation for delays, cancellations and downgrades caused by BA staff action too, but not for HAL strikes (for cancellations only if there is flight is less than 14 day’s notice). See the main EC261 thread in the BA Forum Dashboard.
LHR/LGW pilots (BALPA) industrial action 9 Sep, 10 Sep, and 27 Sep
Jul 23, 2019, 3:19 am
#451
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: OSL
Posts: 2,643
I think ultimately the line of argument BA will argue is this - what should a pilot be paid. Without any judgement; you can construct the argument that pilots are overpaid, that the 2001 paycuts 'right-sized' their earnings and structurally lower pay allows BA to more easily make the decision around expansion, hire more pilots and theoretically make the business more sound. That argument (unfortunately) can then be backed up by the fact that the industry as a whole has never delivered positive returns to its shareholder [enter old billionaire joke], and given aircrafts today are easier to fly (nevermind more complex) pilots pay should be low.
Then opposite you have @flatlander point, in that fairness stands strong with people, and that management is keeping profits to themselves without concern to those actually earning those.
In my view, given by and large pilots are well paid for the qualifications they have, and there's no pilot scarcity an increase in base salaries is not for the good of either the company or the industry (ie next downturn would lead to more redundancies again). That said, given IAG are now returning well above its cost of capital and have done so for years, I do think a profit share scheme is correct (and could easily offset the paycuts they've taken in the past) given that, in my view, capital should be split fairly between those funding it (shareholders), those managing it (management) and those earning it (general employees). I do think that balance is off at BA.
Then opposite you have @flatlander point, in that fairness stands strong with people, and that management is keeping profits to themselves without concern to those actually earning those.
In my view, given by and large pilots are well paid for the qualifications they have, and there's no pilot scarcity an increase in base salaries is not for the good of either the company or the industry (ie next downturn would lead to more redundancies again). That said, given IAG are now returning well above its cost of capital and have done so for years, I do think a profit share scheme is correct (and could easily offset the paycuts they've taken in the past) given that, in my view, capital should be split fairly between those funding it (shareholders), those managing it (management) and those earning it (general employees). I do think that balance is off at BA.
Jul 23, 2019, 3:26 am
#452
Join Date: Jan 2018
Programs: BA Silver
Posts: 439
I’ve got a number of summer BA plans and whilst yesterday’s news isn’t great by any stretch, it’s worth considering the bigger picture.
1- Voting for the strike is only symbolic at this stage. In fact in terms of schedule changes, cancellations etc, it means nothing. We’ve only had a vote so far.
2- In a Union dispute with an employer, voting for a strike would always be in the interest of the Union to strengthen their hand in negotiations and demonstrate how seriously they want to take the issue at hand. So therefore yesterday’s overwhelming result was to be expected.
3- Whilst 93% of pilots voted to strike, as explained above, 93% of pilots won’t actually walk out. The number will be very different to those that voted to.
4- Pilots have families, their friends have families, this is the UK holiday season etc etc. They’re fully aware of what disruption would cause and I’m certain the majority would only strike as a means of a complete last resort.
5- There are no dates set in stone and any dates require notice. BA have launched a legal challenge against the strike that may set it back.
6- We don’t know the outcome of BAs legal challenge yet.
7. Finally, all the above is before you even consider talks between BA and BALPA, which you would say historically, is by far the most likely outcome of a resolution.
Conclusion: Chill out and enjoy a beer in the sun.
1- Voting for the strike is only symbolic at this stage. In fact in terms of schedule changes, cancellations etc, it means nothing. We’ve only had a vote so far.
2- In a Union dispute with an employer, voting for a strike would always be in the interest of the Union to strengthen their hand in negotiations and demonstrate how seriously they want to take the issue at hand. So therefore yesterday’s overwhelming result was to be expected.
3- Whilst 93% of pilots voted to strike, as explained above, 93% of pilots won’t actually walk out. The number will be very different to those that voted to.
4- Pilots have families, their friends have families, this is the UK holiday season etc etc. They’re fully aware of what disruption would cause and I’m certain the majority would only strike as a means of a complete last resort.
5- There are no dates set in stone and any dates require notice. BA have launched a legal challenge against the strike that may set it back.
6- We don’t know the outcome of BAs legal challenge yet.
7. Finally, all the above is before you even consider talks between BA and BALPA, which you would say historically, is by far the most likely outcome of a resolution.
Conclusion: Chill out and enjoy a beer in the sun.
Jul 23, 2019, 3:27 am
#453
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: UK/Australia
Programs: BAEC Silver, UA2MM, QF Platinum, VA Platinum., Volare Executive Club
Posts: 2,512
It's not an unreasonable attitude to expect their back to be scratched this time. In fact the idea of such "fairness" is deeply embedded in human nature, there is a lot of research on it in humans, other primates, and other highly intelligent social species. Hairy and naked apes don't like unfairness, at all.
I don't like unfairness either, but it happens. Hence the strike (it will be interesting to see how it turns out and the short to medium term impact on BA). It will likely affect me as a traveller to some extent, but I will try and be pro-active and take out some "insurance".
End of mindless ramble...
Jul 23, 2019, 3:30 am
#454
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,596
[QUOTE=dodgeflyer;31332538and given aircrafts today are easier to fly (nevermind more complex) pilots pay should be low.
Boeing is spouting the opposite when it comes to the badly trained foreign pilots crashing the B737-max. They are saying the pilots did not recieve enough training, ie difficult to fly.
Boeing is spouting the opposite when it comes to the badly trained foreign pilots crashing the B737-max. They are saying the pilots did not recieve enough training, ie difficult to fly.
Jul 23, 2019, 3:40 am
#455
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 47
Hi all, have had a look through thread but can't find an answer to this - but apologies if it's already been asked and I missed it!
I'm due to fly out on BA to Stockholm on August 31st to connect to a QR flight to Asia Sept 1st. If my BA flight ends up being changed to a non-BA flight due to strike, I understand I would get ORC for TPs and Avios but how does that affect meeting the 4 BA metal flights requirement for Silver? (I will hit the TP requirement, so that's not an issue.)
Thanks in advance
I'm due to fly out on BA to Stockholm on August 31st to connect to a QR flight to Asia Sept 1st. If my BA flight ends up being changed to a non-BA flight due to strike, I understand I would get ORC for TPs and Avios but how does that affect meeting the 4 BA metal flights requirement for Silver? (I will hit the TP requirement, so that's not an issue.)
Thanks in advance
Jul 23, 2019, 3:49 am
#456
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: OSL
Posts: 2,643
That said, aircrafts are only more complex in the view that ancient technology has been overlaid with new tech (flawed in case of B737M).
Jul 23, 2019, 4:06 am
#457
Join Date: Jan 2015
Programs: BAEC Gold
Posts: 1,627
That said, I often watch the air crash investigation series on Sky. One interesting statistic quoted was that about two thirds of aircraft accidents could have been avoided if the pilot took different action. Definately no substitute for having a good man (or woman) sat up front.
Jul 23, 2019, 4:22 am
#458
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 687
Jul 23, 2019, 4:54 am
#460
Join Date: Nov 2015
Programs: CAMRA GGL (Gold Card Holder/Lifetime membership)
Posts: 727
No doubt that you have seen all of the evidence that allows you to make up your mind that the attempt to get an injunction is necessarily a waste of time?
The process that is required before a strike can lawfully take place (to use a shorthand phrase) is there to protect a number of parties, including the company's customers, from the effects of a strike.
Unions don't always comply with the strike rules, and companies therefore do sometimes successfully get court orders that have the consequence that a planned strike must be cancelled because the union has failed to comply with those protective rules. The court will have the opportunity to decide whether the union has done things correctly and whether the strike can therefore lawfully go ahead (to use the shorthand again). And asking the court to make the decision is basically what the rule of law is all about.
The process that is required before a strike can lawfully take place (to use a shorthand phrase) is there to protect a number of parties, including the company's customers, from the effects of a strike.
Unions don't always comply with the strike rules, and companies therefore do sometimes successfully get court orders that have the consequence that a planned strike must be cancelled because the union has failed to comply with those protective rules. The court will have the opportunity to decide whether the union has done things correctly and whether the strike can therefore lawfully go ahead (to use the shorthand again). And asking the court to make the decision is basically what the rule of law is all about.
I am very aware of that. So say the company get an injunction because for example a few pilots have retired but are still TU members and got sent ballot papers. So what does that achieve? The TU tightens up its membership database, makes sure it is watertight, then re-ballots and the new ballot is solid... strike goes ahead just a few weeks later then originally planned!
Again that why the company should be trying to resolve the issue not messing about with injunctions.
The way BA have been operating in recent years including all the cuts, they are in my opinion completely mad if they think the majority of the publics support will be with the company/management rather than the staff.
Jul 23, 2019, 5:07 am
#461
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: London
Programs: BA, VS, HH, IHG, MB, MR
Posts: 26,871
Remember that Thomas Cook took BALPA to court in 2017. The judge threw it out, awarded BALPA all of their costs and told Cook they were banned from appealing. If BALPA have messed up on this one it would be surprising.
Jul 23, 2019, 5:26 am
#463
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Flatland
Programs: AA Lifetime Gold 1MM, BA Gold, UA Peon
Posts: 6,110
Meanwhile airline pilots, especially captains, are hardly run of the mill people. Medical requirements, aptitude to take command decisions, hand/eye skills and other talents, and skills learned through experience are on top of an ATPL and the command course being as much work as doing a bachelors and masters university degrees. Compare their pay to similarly highly experienced, trained, and talented people and it looks quite equitable.
"Aircraft easier to fly" cracks me up. Have you even tried a widebody simulator? Or read a 777/787 FCOM (you can find PDFs online).
Claiming that pilots "ought to be paid less" is as ridiculous as claiming someone "ought to pay" the price you want when you're selling your car or your house. The buyer will pay what they can negotiate, and if they're the only person who is there to buy from you when you need to sell then you will get what price they are willing to pay. BA pilots think that BA should pay them more, both for what BA can afford, the value they give to BA, and for the fairness of paying back in good times what the pilots gave up in bad times. You don't get to dictate the salary of the BA pilots any more than you get to dictate the selling price of your car or house.
Last edited by flatlander; Jul 23, 2019 at 6:28 am Reason: Longer quote to make it clear whose holds the "well paid enough" and "no scacity" viewpoint.
Jul 23, 2019, 5:27 am
#464
Join Date: Jan 2015
Programs: BAEC Gold
Posts: 1,627
Jul 23, 2019, 5:32 am
#465
Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club, easyJet and Ryanair
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK/Las Vegas
Programs: BA Gold (GGL/CCR)
Posts: 15,924
Well, no. The case was not thrown out. The application for an injunction was heard and the court ruled, inter alia, that BALPA had not improperly worded the ballot. Accordingly the application for injunction was refused. As is standard procedure in the UK, costs followed the cause and the losing party paid the costs. Thomas Cook were not banned from appealing, but their request for leave to appeal was refused because the judge was satisfied the legal position, on the evidence, was sufficiently clear.