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LHR/LGW pilots (BALPA) industrial action 9 Sep, 10 Sep, and 27 Sep

LHR/LGW pilots (BALPA) industrial action 9 Sep, 10 Sep, and 27 Sep

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Old Aug 23, 19, 8:25 pm   -   Wikipost
Please read: This is a community-maintained wiki post containing the most important information from this thread. You may edit the Wiki once you have been on FT for 90 days and have made 90 posts.
 
Quick answers to FAQ:

Help! What do I do now?
Most importantly, don't panic and don't do anything in haste. Read these FAQ. Read the thread, particularly the posts starting from the time that the strike dates were announced. Identify your options. Think about what works for you. Then take action. If you do anything in haste, you may have thrown away good options, or you may have thrown away money that you needn't have spent.

NOTE: Some emails have been sent out by mistake notifying the cancellation of flights on 8 September and other dates. If your booking still looks OK in MMB then you don't need to take further action. A cancelled flight should be shown in MMB with struck-through text. If your flight details are not struck through, then it probably hasn't actually been cancelled. You could check ba.com to see whether BA is still taking reservations for the flight in question. If so, then the flight has not been cancelled. You may also try checking on ExpertFlyer, if you have access, to see whether your flight appears still to be operating and whether BA is still taking reservations. However, some afternoon/evening flights on 8 September have genuinely been cancelled. See main thread for details.

Has a strike been called yet?
Yes. BALPA, the pilots' union, has voted in favour of strike action, and the Court of Appeal has rejected BA's submission to have the poll set aside, so the legal process is now over. The two parties went back into talks after the legal proceedings and those talks were expected to continue into the week of 5 August.

BALPA on 23 Aug announced strikes on Monday 9 September Tuesday 10 September and Friday 27 September.

Any further strikes normally require 2 weeks notice under UK legislation.

What flights may be affected?
LHR and LGW based flights. Not LCY or STN flights. Both cabin and flight crew are in dispute with BA, but the pilots (captains, senior first officers, first officers) are closest to strike action.

How long would a strike last?
The initial strikes are for two days the a single day, with normal working in between. Any other strikes could be of any length. It would be rare in the UK for there to be a full time strike.

What would happen to my flights if it is a strike day?
A range of options have been announced, see post 1551 below for more information: https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/brit...l#post31451055

and BA Trade Site guidance here: https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb...kba?faqid=7594

Rebooking is now allowed on Iberia, AA, Finnair, JAL and Qatar. Within Europe EI and Vueling are also allowed. This is for both revenue and redemption flights.

and the FAQ on BA.com here (this includes information on BA Holidays bookings which are substantially different): https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb...st-information

Can I do anything with an existing booking now?
Yes. Your options are different depending on whether your flights are currently showing as cancelled or not. See the links above.

What about Heathrow staff - aren't their strikes planned there too?
Yes there is a separate dispute at the moment between Heathrow Airport (HAL) and their staff such as those who operate the security checkpoints. See the separate thread on the issue.

Am I protected by EC261 if there is a problem?
You are always covered by the Right to Care provisions of Regulation EC261. You could potentially be able to claim compensation for delays, cancellations and downgrades caused by BA staff action too, but not for HAL strikes (for cancellations only if there is flight is less than 14 dayís notice). See the main EC261 thread in the BA Forum Dashboard.
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Old Jul 29, 19, 7:58 am
  #691  
 
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Originally Posted by Custardthecat View Post
John, thank you for your apology which is gratefully accepted. In my opinion the application was bound to be dismissed but Judges are successfully appealed all the time. I have not heard anything to change my view that the appellant will fail again. However if they can find one single issue to hang a legal argument on then they may well succeed in muddying the waters. The facts of the matter i.e. the detail of that would probably be unknown to both of us at this point. As an outsider, observing inwards, it does seem that BA may not expect to win at appeal but they are succeeding in getting customers away meantime whilst the legal argument goes on. There seems to be no bar to announcing the dates now negotiating with BA at ACAS, calling the strikes off if either an appeal is successful or a settlement is reached. John, I accept that debt is a weighty issue but it is still a personal one. My view and my desperation not to have my travel with my children disrupted also has many personal aspects attached, some of which you might be sympathetic to but which are irrelevant to the argument. Of course, prima facie, it is a selfish view as I don't want my holiday disrupted. Self interest plays its part, as it does in the BA dispute. Everyone is selfish to a degree in outlook. I ask you to accept that I am literally, the man in the middle, the customer. There is a dispute between two groups that will potentially impact me. I have allegiances to neither. I support the view that one may withdraw their labour. Yet I will not lend my support to the pilots because of the perception I have based on the information to hand. You (if you are one) would gain enormous traction with the public if you let the children have their hols first and then set about causing the chaos that will still undoubtedly flow even after the school holiday period. Causing needless suffering really wont endear the pilots to anyone and may throw the public behind the airline after the holidays. In fact their arguments will be less likely to be heard above all the public outcry. The media reports wont be about the actually nitty gritty but about the chaos at airports as small children are used as pawns. This may sound harsh to you but in the event the media may be very unforgiving as they seek a headline that sells papers. I've lived through many disputes that a strike has resulted, dustmen, tube drivers, miners, cabin crew. None of them particularly gained public sympathy. I'm sure you feel now that is irrelevant but take it from me, there may be a time for a more considered view.
I am just a passenger too but not potentially affected though I may be. Iíve been affected before by cabin crew and tubes many times.Despite the inconvenience I support the strikers especially the pilots here as I think BA are bang out of order.

Just suppose strike dates are announced tomorrow, I doubt that BA will allow rebooking/amendments until they know what flights are going to be cancelled which is only going to be a day or so beforehand as of course the strikes could be called off right up to the last minute. BA arenít going to want to be paying top dollar to competitors for what little capacity there is and Iím sure insurance companies will only pay out if the strikes go ahead not a threat of a strike.

I hear what you say about affecting business flights from September but Iíd have thought BALPa would want maximum disruption and embarrassment for BA over their centennial weekend in August, delays to the launch of their new business Class Suite because there havenít been sufficient familiarisation flights etc. I think 140 flights were cancelled due to the storms in Europe last week and the ATC technical glitch. That caused BA to implode almost, queues of people for rebooking, no hotels at LHR, rebooking for flights 3 days later there are still ripples of flights cancelled today due to lack of crew.

Iíd really like to be so wrong in all of this more than ever before. The ideal scenario will be strike dates announced tomorrow, BA think oh weíre in a spot of bother and stop being the fool, talks happen and an agreement is reached and strikes called off. Everybody is happy passengers, BALPA, BA and Flyertalk.....

This is just a big big poker game.. with joe public as the stakes. I think Balpa hold the upper hand and BA have a good poker face but hope they fold quickly but knowing how much of an arse they were over the mixed fleet dispute I do wonder... though this of course is more severe than the mixed fleet dispute

With the TFL disputes the first day of strikes tend to happen, cause mayhem and then negotiations continue in earnest, other strikes are called off and the dispute is finally resolved. The threat of a reinstated strike sometimes is needed to help TFL focus more. I really hope that doesnít happen as the damage will be done and holidays ruined etc and whilst BALPA will get what they were after itís at a significant cost.
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Old Jul 29, 19, 8:10 am
  #692  
 
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Originally Posted by KeaneJohn View Post


I am just a passenger too but not potentially affected though I may be. Iíve been affected before by cabin crew and tubes many times.Despite the inconvenience I support the strikers especially the pilots here as I think BA are bang out of order.

Just suppose strike dates are announced tomorrow, I doubt that BA will allow rebooking/amendments until they know what flights are going to be cancelled which is only going to be a day or so beforehand as of course the strikes could be called off right up to the last minute. BA arenít going to want to be paying top dollar to competitors for what little capacity there is and Iím sure insurance companies will only pay out if the strikes go ahead not a threat of a strike.

I hear what you say about affecting business flights from September but Iíd have thought BALPa would want maximum disruption and embarrassment for BA over their centennial weekend in August, delays to the launch of their new business Class Suite because there havenít been sufficient familiarisation flights etc. I think 140 flights were cancelled due to the storms in Europe last week and the ATC technical glitch. That caused BA to implode almost, queues of people for rebooking, no hotels at LHR, rebooking for flights 3 days later there are still ripples of flights cancelled today due to lack of crew.

Iíd really like to be so wrong in all of this more than ever before. The ideal scenario will be strike dates announced tomorrow, BA think oh weíre in a spot of bother and stop being the fool, talks happen and an agreement is reached and strikes called off. Everybody is happy passengers, BALPA, BA and Flyertalk.....

This is just a big big poker game.. with joe public as the stakes. I think Balpa hold the upper hand and BA have a good poker face but hope they fold quickly but knowing how much of an arse they were over the mixed fleet dispute I do wonder... though this of course is more severe than the mixed fleet dispute

With the TFL disputes the first day of strikes tend to happen, cause mayhem and then negotiations continue in earnest, other strikes are called off and the dispute is finally resolved. The threat of a reinstated strike sometimes is needed to help TFL focus more. I really hope that doesnít happen as the damage will be done and holidays ruined etc and whilst BALPA will get what they were after itís at a significant cost.
Then we are in the same boat but perhaps taking different perspectives on the horizon. I agree totally it is a poker game. BALPA do have the upper hand (or appear to). They can bring the airline to a halt and impact profits with just a threat of a strike, as is the case now. Whether it is sensible to do that is a separate matter as is the date which they choose to do it.
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Old Jul 29, 19, 8:15 am
  #693  
 
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Originally Posted by Custardthecat View Post
Well the appeal is tomorrow. we will see how quick BALPA is off the mark with announcing its strike dates or if they will stretch it out even longer. In any case, I think if it is known that a strike date is set then the airline has to deploy its best efforts to get you to your destination by rebooking and/or re-routing you, utilising other flights, carriers etc, without relying on the possibility of a successful appeal.
It would be better if the Airline waisted no time re booking you, and instead made a decent offer and settled the dispute.
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Old Jul 29, 19, 8:16 am
  #694  
 
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Originally Posted by SWISSBOBBY View Post
Hypothetical one here... but want to try if for size and see what the collective FT wisdom thinks on this:

I have an upcoming nested trip GVA - LHR - GLA GLA - LHR - YUL - LHR - GLA GLA - LHR -GVA

I have an overnight break in GLA in each direction,
If stikes go ahead and cause me to have to jig stuff about do you think I am protected under conditions of carriage


(BA bolding)

Logic:
The terms do not say whether I have to bring forwards to push back my travel, it only says that it has to be caused by events beyond my control, as I am not an employee of BA, or BALPA, I cannot see any means by which I am in control of the industrial action.

P.S. All ticketed with BA
I am not an expert in the law of contract. I observe as follows;

You do not NEED to change your date of travel as such e.g. Domestic emergency, changing circumstances. Any enforced change has been influenced by actions of others. Your actual needs have not changed and you are not expressing a wish to do so because of your own requirements. I think its down to them to facilitate you to the best of their ability.

Originally Posted by rapidex View Post
It would be better if the Airline waisted no time re booking you, and instead made a decent offer and settled the dispute.
For my edification and intellectual delight, could you illuminate what you might consider to be a 'decent offer'. I set out my stall in saying that 11.5% over 3 years is a decent offer and pretty much what the rest of the company colleagues have settled for. So what is decent in your book? 20%, 17.5%, 15%, 13%, 12.5%? The floor is yours.

Last edited by Prospero; Jul 29, 19 at 4:42 pm Reason: Merge consecutive posts
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Old Jul 29, 19, 8:31 am
  #695  
 
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Originally Posted by Custardthecat View Post
For my edification and intellectual delight, could you illuminate what you might consider to be a 'decent offer'. I set out my stall in saying that 11.5% over 3 years is a decent offer and pretty much what the rest of the company colleagues have settled for. So what is decent in your book? 20%, 17.5%, 15%, 13%, 12.5%? The floor is yours.
That is for the negotiating team and not for here. Having had BA come with their begging bowl out after the difficult time some years ago, with the absolute promise that that pay cut would be restored when good times returned, it is utterly disgraceful of BA to renege on this promise and put the money into management bonuses instead. This has hardened attitudes throughout the Pilot workforce.
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Old Jul 29, 19, 8:32 am
  #696  
 
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Originally Posted by Custardthecat View Post
For my edification and intellectual delight, could you illuminate what you might consider to be a 'decent offer'. I set out my stall in saying that 11.5% over 3 years is a decent offer and pretty much what the rest of the company colleagues have settled for. So what is decent in your book? 20%, 17.5%, 15%, 13%, 12.5%? The floor is yours.

Would you sign a new pay deal which had hidden strings attached, which will only be disclosed afterwards? And pretty much most of the rest of the company have settled? Not that I am aware of.
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Old Jul 29, 19, 8:47 am
  #697  
 
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Originally Posted by rapidex View Post
That is for the negotiating team and not for here. Having had BA come with their begging bowl out after the difficult time some years ago, with the absolute promise that that pay cut would be restored when good times returned, it is utterly disgraceful of BA to renege on this promise and put the money into management bonuses instead. This has hardened attitudes throughout the Pilot workforce.
So Flygirl68 is on about hidden terms and conditions but you don't seem bothered by that, you just seem to want more Wonga. Pardon me for my observation but there does not seem to be a unified view. I had asked you for a personal view of what you thought was decent but you cant say. Its a fairly simple question. If 12% isn't 'decent' then what is? If management made this promise and it has not been honoured then I would agree they are at fault and should be held to account. You have my support in that management bonuses can be obscene. However, I do think that attempting to leverage the position by ruining school holidays is a step too far. September would have the same effect financially on the employer. In fact if the union just kept the threat there till then the airline would lose large amounts without any current bookings being disrupted in the holidays Forward bookings would be trashed. Its really not rocket science.
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Old Jul 29, 19, 9:03 am
  #698  
 
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Originally Posted by Custardthecat View Post
. September would have the same effect financially on the employer. In fact if the union just kept the threat there till then the airline would lose large amounts without any current bookings being disrupted in the holidays Forward bookings would be trashed. Its really not rocket science.
Thats a bit rich. A few posts back you were rubbishing BALPA for not ignoring the court appeal and getting on with calling the strike. Talk about cake and eat it.
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Old Jul 29, 19, 9:07 am
  #699  
 
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https://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/co...t-appeal-civil

COURT 73
Before LORD JUSTICE DAVIS
LORD JUSTICE HAMBLEN and
LADY JUSTICE SIMLER
Tuesday, 30th July, 2019
At half-past 10
APPEAL

From The Queen's Bench Division
FINAL DECISIONS
A2/2019/1780 British Airways Plc -v- British Airline Pilots' Association. Appeal of Claimant from the order of Mrs Justice Elisabeth Laing, dated 23rd July 2019, filed 24th July 2019.
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Old Jul 29, 19, 9:10 am
  #700  
 
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This is an appeal by British Airways against the order made by Mrs Justice Elisabeth Laing dated 23 July 2019 refusing to order an interim injunction preventing strike action by British Airways Pilots.

British Airways has claimed that the ballot had not been carried out correctly and had failed to provide a list of the categories of employees who had been balloted and argued that British Airline Pilots’ Association’s failure to specify whether the pilots were in long- haul or short- haul fleets meant that the ballot could not be relied on.

British Airline Pilots’ Association submitted that it was not required to provide that level of detail and that this would amount to a disproportionate interference with the right to strike.

Mrs Justice Elisabeth Laing held that British Airline Pilots’ Association’s notice of ballot had satisfied its obligation under section 226A of the Trade Union and Labour Relations (Consolidation) Act 1992.

British Airways argue that Mrs Justice Elisabeth Laing’s conclusion is incorrect.
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Old Jul 29, 19, 9:14 am
  #701  
 
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Originally Posted by Custardthecat View Post
Actually I think they have. Im pretty sure it was you who asked me if I had spent £120K to train in your list of justifications for the dispute. KeaneJohn has also followed up with a justification for debt so it seems to be a pretty significant part of this debate. Strikes are usually about Pay and T&Cs not about personal debt. I condemn the union and its members if this is a significant factor and KeaneJohns comments tend to support the theory that it is. F/Os pay can be poor? Compared to whom? Other senior pilots? Business leaders? Yes, possibly and with reason. Teachers, Coppers, Doctors, Nurses, ATCOs, Commissioned Officers and NCOs? (sorry, none of those). Pilots may perceive they have the upper hand and indeed they may be right. However in my view they are behaving as bully boys do and their motivations appear to be somewhat suspect. BALPA are being disingenuous by keeping everyone waiting to announce strike dates and make the public sweat. If there was a strategy to really annoy the public they are following it to the letter and transparently so. PS. There are no rosy jobs. We are all under the gun.
Rosy jobs is a fair point, not sure how many of us would still pitch up after a life changing lottery win, pilot does seem to be one of those 'I used to dream about being a pilot when I was a kid' or 'I love my job' kinda jobs, not many of them about. If the 'collective' have decided to strike then fair enough that is their right, but to impact the holidays of those who likely have less loved jobs that are less well payed and may have had to be saved up for over a period of time does seem somewhat of an own goal in the PR stakes. I'm a good example, mess up my business travel, ho hum, mess up my family holiday and my sympathy for the cause is hard to find.
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Old Jul 29, 19, 9:20 am
  #702  
 
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Originally Posted by rapidex View Post
Thats a bit rich. A few posts back you were rubbishing BALPA for not ignoring the court appeal and getting on with calling the strike. Talk about cake and eat it.
I think you miss the point. My focus, whether you agree or not, is on the summer holiday period. BAPLA could have avoided this school holiday period period entirely and chosen September instead. Now that we are in the school holiday period and they refuse to consider waiting till September which would have a similar financial impact, I do rather think they should get on with it if they are serious. If they had stated they will strike sometime in September then school holidays would be saved but future forward bookings would be hit but at least customers would have a choice to use other carriers. BALPA could still cause a fair amount of chaos.. Its not having cake and eating it, it is suggesting what would have been a better strategy to pursue in terms of public perception (not high on your agenda obviously). I feel you are too obstinate to appreciate that fact. BALPA well know that families have made plans that cannot be altered for the holiday period and regrettably, I feel that they are leveraging that to gain advantage.

Originally Posted by tuonopepper View Post
Rosy jobs is a fair point, not sure how many of us would still pitch up after a life changing lottery win, pilot does seem to be one of those 'I used to dream about being a pilot when I was a kid' or 'I love my job' kinda jobs, not many of them about. If the 'collective' have decided to strike then fair enough that is their right, but to impact the holidays of those who likely have less loved jobs that are less well payed and may have had to be saved up for over a period of time does seem somewhat of an own goal in the PR stakes. I'm a good example, mess up my business travel, ho hum, mess up my family holiday and my sympathy for the cause is hard to find.
Yes, it seems an obvious conclusion but one where the sauce isn't sinking in.

Last edited by Prospero; Jul 29, 19 at 4:50 pm Reason: Merge consecutive posts
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Old Jul 29, 19, 9:29 am
  #703  
 
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We have our 1st First 28th August LHR-HKG. IF after today things don't move forward and strikes were called on that date I presume we can hard ball BA on alternatives? They point blank refused my prefered alternate for LED ( AY LHR-HEL/ N7 HEL-LED / BA MDE-LHR) saying N7 wasn't one world until I escalated it, was told I was a liar and then had the manager check their own website and eat some humble pie whilst rebooking as requested.

As the OB is part of a multi country/ multi carrier trip flying on the day is kind of needed( although with 4 days in Honkers we'd have some tolerance despite how annoying it would be). Would I be within my rights to request F on CX on the same day instead( subject to space on the flight of course)? Aside from not getting to use the CCR which we were rather looking forward to the change to a CX F experience wouldn't be something that would ruin our day tbh.

It was booked on an Amex 2-4-1 which of course may be an issue in such a case as those are restricted to BA metal as we all know so i'm not sure what the protocol would be in this case / where i'd stand on bargaining power. I appreciate that it may require a staffer to advise on this aspect but all advice greatly received & appreciated.

Naturally i'd hope BA would see that the financial impact of one day alone is probably more than is being asked for and things get sorted/ staff looked after above shareholders / senior execs bonus payments. .
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Old Jul 29, 19, 9:31 am
  #704  
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Originally Posted by tuonopepper View Post
Rosy jobs is a fair point, not sure how many of us would still pitch up after a life changing lottery win, pilot does seem to be one of those 'I used to dream about being a pilot when I was a kid' or 'I love my job' kinda jobs, not many of them about. If the 'collective' have decided to strike then fair enough that is their right, but to impact the holidays of those who likely have less loved jobs that are less well payed and may have had to be saved up for over a period of time does seem somewhat of an own goal in the PR stakes. I'm a good example, mess up my business travel, ho hum, mess up my family holiday and my sympathy for the cause is hard to find.
If you wouldn't still do your job if you won £5m then you should find something you want to do and do that instead. Spending 8-10 hours per day until you're 60 doing something you dislike, at which point the best years of your life are behind you (arguably) is not a great strategy. If you're reading FT you're clearly smart enough to be doing your own thing.
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Old Jul 29, 19, 10:40 am
  #705  
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Folks, with apologies, this thread is temporarily closed for mod review. Thank you for your patience.

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