Educational requirements for BA pilots

Old May 10, 2019, 12:42 am
  #16  
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Originally Posted by krispy84
In BA’s case, they have historically employed many ex-RAF pilots (plus I’m sure ex-FAA and maybe ex-AAC).
In the 80s and 90s it was said you could always tell if an ex FAA pilot was flying your BA plane as the landing could often be somewhat "robust" - a leftover from landing the Phantom and Buccaneer on a carrier deck with no flare in the final seconds. They were literally flown straight at the deck - in relative terms to a runway, a carrier landing was likened to landing your plane on something the size of a postage stamp that was also moving away from you at some 30knots.
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Old May 10, 2019, 12:59 am
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When I qualified as a commercial pilot, back in the late 80s, there was very little emphasis on human factors, cockpit resource management, crisis management etc when compared to today. In fact many of these topics didn't even exist when I learned to fly in the 70s! Now there is a much greater emphasis on these topics. I am not saying that to become a commercial pilot you do not need technical skills, of course you do, but the emphasis has shifted more now towards leadership attributes and resource management particularly at times of high workload, and for that there is less of a technical requirement. They are looking for more rounded individuals with a good range of skills now.

I only have GCEs and didn't graduate and I have known several people with similar qualifications to mine make it through to work for BA.
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Old May 10, 2019, 1:41 am
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It’s a common mis-conception that pilots MUST be “clever” in the traditional sense.

Having sat the Airline Transport Pilot License (ATPL) exams I would say it’s more quantity than quality. Yes there are a few complex theories to get your head around but it’s mainly a memory test (each subject comes with a hefty textbook and there are 14 subjects to pass).

Flying training itself again has a few complex theories but nothing more than a bit of GCSE Maths - trigonometry is about as complicated as it gets (used for cross-wind and drift calculations).

As someone further up has alluded to, there is much more emphasis these days on human factors ie your personality and how you deal with time pressure, assertiveness, situational awareness, social interaction and so on. Most airline assessments have a short mental arithmetic test but then the rest is all about these other “competencies” - hands on flying skill is a consideration but airlines don’t need a fighter ace to fly their modern aircraft.

Equally, there is no point sitting next to Captain Einstein with a degree in Astro-Physics if the same Captain assumes he knows everything during an emergency, and doesn’t listen to his First Officer who may just happen to know something that he doesn’t.
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Old May 10, 2019, 1:54 am
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Originally Posted by BOH
For BA you must also be called either Nigel or Dominic
In today's world of equality you should also include Nigella & Dominica/Dominique please

Last edited by babats; May 10, 2019 at 1:55 am Reason: Correction
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Old May 10, 2019, 2:07 am
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Originally Posted by babats
In today's world of equality you should also include Nigella & Dominica/Dominique please
Is received pronunciation still required?
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Old May 10, 2019, 2:50 am
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Originally Posted by BOH
In the 80s and 90s it was said you could always tell if an ex FAA pilot was flying your BA plane as the landing could often be somewhat "robust" - a leftover from landing the Phantom and Buccaneer on a carrier deck with no flare in the final seconds. They were literally flown straight at the deck - in relative terms to a runway, a carrier landing was likened to landing your plane on something the size of a postage stamp that was also moving away from you at some 30knots.
Everything's relative, and at the risk of being derided by "true" naval aviators, the "moving away from you at some 30knots" bit really helps quite a lot!

rb211.
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Old May 10, 2019, 2:55 am
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Originally Posted by AllTheNines
Having sat the Airline Transport Pilot License (ATPL) exams I would say it’s more quantity than quality. Yes there are a few complex theories to get your head around but it’s mainly a memory test (each subject comes with a hefty textbook and there are 14 subjects to pass).
Totally agree. It is as much a memory test as anything else. I would say that if you are not good at taking written exams (they are mostly multiple choice BTW so not a lot of writing!) then you might struggle. Also I found the fact that they all had to be taken within a certain time-frame meant that study was a case of cramming at times. It is a long time to when I took my ATPL exams but IIRC they are grouped so if you fail one exam then you have to retake just that one but if you fail more than one in a group you have to retake the whole group. It makes it quite a challenge in itself. I found the trig pretty easy as I was a PPL instructor when I took my exams so was already pretty familiar with most nav subjects but I did struggle with the Perfomance "A" exam. Nothing very complicated but lots of maths done under the pressure of time.

Is Perf A still a requirement?
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Old May 10, 2019, 4:16 am
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I would say that the ATPL syllabus is at least as complex as my degrees (undergraduate and Masters level). And is both denser in parts, and also more pressured than many university degrees.

And while the comments about modern requirements for other softer skills (CRM) etc are entirely valid, I would say that the assumption that those equivalent skills are imparted during some bog standard first degree at an average university is a false one.

I personally think that it is the extra-curricular side of uni life that can give a student that additional dimension to their education, and for that to happen the student must have to have embraced that side of life.

So people who were super academic to the exclusion of all else won't necessarily have had much of this uplift. And at the other end of the spectrum, neither willl the millions of undergrads who just stumble through their first degrees and divide the non lecture time between study and socialising (ie not volunteering, not joining clubs or societies etc).

And for both of those sets, I personally wouldn't necessarily assume that the skills required as a bedrock for some of these modern cockpit 'soft skills' are going to be in place.

In short I think what I am saying is that in agreement with sentiments earlier in the thread, that to all intents and purposes you may as well say that an ATPL pass is equivalent to a uni first degree - it's a fair bit of work but it's not rocket science, and it doesn't guarantee you have additional skills that may these days be important in a modern MCC environment.

Therefore the O levels I assume are merely being used as the bare minimum academics required to make sure you could for example actually do the maths required in the ATPL theory (trig etc)

Hope that makes sense
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Old May 10, 2019, 4:20 am
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@Pascoe Good post
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Old May 10, 2019, 4:27 am
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Originally Posted by snaxmuppet
@Pascoe Good post
Thanks - just how I see it having made some explorations in the past into the logistics of it for me personally (in an ideal world I'd jump in tomorrow but life's never that simple). My day job has a surprising number of parallels with 'modern' cockpit workflow.
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Old May 10, 2019, 5:03 am
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Having recruited for my team when working in an investment bank, I had no end of highly impressive CV s of super bright over achievers, with fabulous qualifications.

But utterly lacking in common sense and quite often intuitive.

I had a strong liking for mixed teams with people of different backgrounds and experiences. Better environment better results.

Dont know if it works that way on a flight deck but it is short sighted to dismiss people based on a single metric which often has little to do with the job they end up doing.
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Old May 10, 2019, 5:28 am
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Originally Posted by GetSetJetSet
6’3” cutoff for airline pilots seems odd
As a 16 year old 6ft4 at a Careers Fair a BA Recruitment Team told me I was already too tall to be a pilot. Heartbreaking. Although it saved me having to realise I probably wasn't clever enough or rich enough living in a council house with my mum, but it was my dream then.

But a recent conversation on here said that most airlines don't have this height restriction - I stopped growing at 6ft6 and apparently some airlines would have me. If only i was a competently trained pilot!
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Old May 10, 2019, 5:45 am
  #28  
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Originally Posted by RB211
Everything's relative, and at the risk of being derided by "true" naval aviators, the "moving away from you at some 30knots" bit really helps quite a lot!

rb211.
Well yes of course it would do, ideally you want the carrier deck moving as fast as possible away from you, into as strong a headwind as possible.
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Old May 10, 2019, 6:34 am
  #29  
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I'd rather have a sensible, wise pilot with decent personality with good connection between their hands and their brain with barely any educational qualifications than someone with a MSc/MEng in aeronautical engineering but without common sense or sensibleness or with poor personality, any time!

In reality you wouldn't get through the ATPL written exams if you are not academically "OK" anyway (even the much dumbed-down EASA version compared to the good old UK CAA ones...), but the actual academic qualifications shouldn't matter beyond the very basics to make sure you can do the arithmetic and write English in a somewhat comprehensible manner (which is pretty much what BA is doing).

I know certain airlines (they shall remain nameless to protect the 'guilty') with pretty poor safety records that normally require pilots to have a degree...

Originally Posted by snaxmuppet
Is Perf A still a requirement?

I think that went with JAR-isation followed by EASA. No more VC10 hell (was that VC10 or something else?)
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Last edited by LTN Phobia; May 10, 2019 at 6:41 am
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Old May 10, 2019, 7:09 am
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Originally Posted by Sam Bee
As a 16 year old 6ft4 at a Careers Fair a BA Recruitment Team told me I was already too tall to be a pilot. Heartbreaking. Although it saved me having to realise I probably wasn't clever enough or rich enough living in a council house with my mum, but it was my dream then.

But a recent conversation on here said that most airlines don't have this height restriction - I stopped growing at 6ft6 and apparently some airlines would have me. If only i was a competently trained pilot!
One of my best hires came from a similar background. She grafted and got promoted over a hurray Henry type who simply assumed charm was enough, and then made the mistake of complaining to me about it.

Think she’s a SVP now.

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