2-4-1 downgrade and MCOL
Apr 16, 2019, 2:32 pm
#31
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 2,016
Apr 16, 2019, 2:57 pm
#32
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 1,271
And add the extra value due to redemption tickets being refundable and somewhat changeable up to 24 hours out, compared with the no changes no refund rules common in I class? Might have to draw the line somewhere.
Apr 16, 2019, 3:00 pm
#33
Join Date: May 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 455
https://www.americanexpress.com/uk/c...n-voucher.html
I refer again to the terms of the agreement between Amex and the card holder as printed in the attached link. Clearly Amex guarantees the same cabin for the companion under the terms of the credit card agreement. Presumably BA permits this offer to be made (either that or Amex are making a fraudulent claim). It would appear to me that the OP should advise Amex that BA withheld the fulfilment of the terms if the agreement and that Amex should reimburse the card holder and take up the failure to honour the terms with BA. If I was going to do MCOL against anyone it would be against Amex for failing to ensure BA honoured the terms of the agreement. I would also claim a replacement voucher from Amex on the grounds that the terms of usage were not met. This situation will continue to rear its head until Amex takes BA to task for breaking the terms of the credit card agreement
I refer again to the terms of the agreement between Amex and the card holder as printed in the attached link. Clearly Amex guarantees the same cabin for the companion under the terms of the credit card agreement. Presumably BA permits this offer to be made (either that or Amex are making a fraudulent claim). It would appear to me that the OP should advise Amex that BA withheld the fulfilment of the terms if the agreement and that Amex should reimburse the card holder and take up the failure to honour the terms with BA. If I was going to do MCOL against anyone it would be against Amex for failing to ensure BA honoured the terms of the agreement. I would also claim a replacement voucher from Amex on the grounds that the terms of usage were not met. This situation will continue to rear its head until Amex takes BA to task for breaking the terms of the credit card agreement
Apr 16, 2019, 3:11 pm
#34
Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club, easyJet and Ryanair
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK/Las Vegas
Programs: BA Gold (GGL/CCR)
Posts: 15,914
No! It is equally important that the claimant appreciates the strengths of the defence filed and understands the legal difficulties on both sides.
Last edited by Tobias-UK; Apr 16, 2019 at 3:45 pm Reason: To quote correct post.
Apr 16, 2019, 3:35 pm
#35
Join Date: May 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 455
Credit Card Terms
I wholly disagree. The terms of the credit card agreement are without ambiguity and clearly state both the voucher holder and the companion will travel in the same cabin. Amex have failed to ensure that terms of this contract were delivered and so the OP has a claim against Amex for breach of contract. He is perfectly entitled tobe put back in the position he was in before the breach occurred i.e. in possession of the voucher with sufficient Avios to use it. It would then be up to Amex to remonstrate with BA to ensure that the terms of the card agreement are met and that this practice ceases.
Apr 16, 2019, 3:52 pm
#36
Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club, easyJet and Ryanair
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK/Las Vegas
Programs: BA Gold (GGL/CCR)
Posts: 15,914
I wholly disagree. The terms of the credit card agreement are without ambiguity and clearly state both the voucher holder and the companion will travel in the same cabin. Amex have failed to ensure that terms of this contract were delivered and so the OP has a claim against Amex for breach of contract. He is perfectly entitled tobe put back in the position he was in before the breach occurred i.e. in possession of the voucher with sufficient Avios to use it. It would then be up to Amex to remonstrate with BA to ensure that the terms of the card agreement are met and that this practice ceases.
In response to your quote, Amex haven’t breached their contract. It was BA who downgraded the companion. Let’s wait to see what the OP has claimed and the basis for that claim. AMEX are not a party in this litigation so in the OP’s case that discussion would only serve to distract rather then help him focus his mind n the issues of his case.
Apr 16, 2019, 4:16 pm
#37
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,552
I wholly disagree. The terms of the credit card agreement are without ambiguity and clearly state both the voucher holder and the companion will travel in the same cabin. Amex have failed to ensure that terms of this contract were delivered and so the OP has a claim against Amex for breach of contract. He is perfectly entitled tobe put back in the position he was in before the breach occurred i.e. in possession of the voucher with sufficient Avios to use it. It would then be up to Amex to remonstrate with BA to ensure that the terms of the card agreement are met and that this practice ceases.
18.The Cardmember and their Companions must travel together at all times therefore must be booked onto the same flight and cabin class when travelling using a Companion Voucher
The terms were complied with ; there were booked onto the same flight and cabin class ; that the airline subsequently downgraded one does not affect this under EC261
Given that the voucher has no cost , I cannot see that there is any value other than 75% of zero there
If this was a booking where a carrier imposed charge was applied, I cannot reasonably see how 75% of the one way carrier imposed surcharge would not be due and would be pushing for that
Apr 16, 2019, 4:20 pm
#38
Join Date: May 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 455
I actually quoted the wrong post, my post duly edited.
In response to your quote, Amex haven’t breached their contract. It was BA who downgraded the companion. Let’s wait to see what the OP has claimed and the basis for that claim. AMEX are not a party in this litigation so in the OP’s case that discussion would only serve to distract rather then help him focus his mind n the issues of his case.
Apr 16, 2019, 4:22 pm
#39
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 2,016
I wholly disagree. The terms of the credit card agreement are without ambiguity and clearly state both the voucher holder and the companion will travel in the same cabin. Amex have failed to ensure that terms of this contract were delivered and so the OP has a claim against Amex for breach of contract. He is perfectly entitled tobe put back in the position he was in before the breach occurred i.e. in possession of the voucher with sufficient Avios to use it. It would then be up to Amex to remonstrate with BA to ensure that the terms of the card agreement are met and that this practice ceases.
Apr 16, 2019, 4:25 pm
#40
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 1,271
But they are a party. They issued the terms of the agreement. If they are unable to keep them the contract could be construed as unfair but, as it stands, Amex are responsible for ensuring that their agents (in this case BA) fulfil the terms of the agreement. Amex stand responsible for their agent and cannot simply absolve themselves of responsibility. There is no doubt whatsoever that Amex have a legal liability to make amends for their proxy failure to deliver on he terms of the contract to which the OP was entitled to receive.
Again I'm not a lawyer!
Apr 16, 2019, 4:28 pm
#41
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 2,016
I think that the important point is that the OP decided to take BA to MCOL. AMEX may or may not be liable for something, but with BA being the only defendant in the MCOL case, only BA's liability will be tested.
Apr 16, 2019, 4:48 pm
#42
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2019
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 8
Thanks all for your helpful replies.
This is what I have said in the claim:
On 12 February 2018, I reserved 2 business class tickets with the Defendant (BA)from LGW to TPA on behalf of Companion and me out on 5 January and back on 19 January 2019.Payment was made with 137,500 Avios airmiles+an American Express Companion voucher+£1,006.80 cash. Companion was downgraded to premium economy on the return leg. A goodwill payment of USD259 was paid at TPA but despite correspondence with BA, no reimbursement per EC261/2004 has been paid.The claim is for a refund of the cash equivalent of £825 (cost to buy Avios from BA)plus refund of cash fees of £161 after deduction of taxes at 75% reimbursement for the sector per Article 10.2.c. The claimant claims interest under section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% a year from 26/01/2019 to 21/03/2019 on £986.00 and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £0.28.
And here is the relevant payment information from the e-ticket:
Membership No**************
Redemption Type Companion e-voucher
Card Type American Express
Card Holder** ***********************
Card Number**************
Billing Address************************************
Avios points debited137500V
oucher TypeBA American Express Companion Voucher
Voucher Number(s)*****************
Payment TotalGBP 1006.80
Payment Date12 Feb 2018
Flight tickets issued b yBritish Airways,
UKIATA Number************
Endorsements*m*redemption/restrictions may apply/no cash refund/non endorsableFare DetailsGBP 0.00 + Tax/Fee/Charge GBP 1006.80 = GBP 1006.80
Fare breakdownThe price of your ticket includes a carrier imposed charge or fuel surcharge, where applicable, per sector levied by the carrier. All taxes, fees and charges are to be paid by the member (not British Airways).Please note that air travel is not subject to VAT therefore we do not issue VAT receipts.Where applicable, if you wish to change the date or time of your flight, or cancel your booking, the cost of doing so will generally be lower on ba than over the telephone or at a ticket desk. Service charges are subject to change.
Government, authority and airport charges
Per adult
Air Passenger Duty - United KingdomGBP 156.00
Animal & Plant Health User Fee (Aphis) - USA GBP 2.80
Passenger Civil Aviation Security Service Fee - USAGBP 4.00
Immigration User Fee - USAGBP 5.00USGBP 13.10
Customs User Fee - USAGBP 4.10USGBP 13.10YQGBP 289.00
Passenger Service Charge - United KingdomGBP 13.10
Total government, authority and airport charges*
GBP 500.20
British Airways fees and surchargesPer adultPassenger Facility ChargeGBP 3.20
Total British Airways fees and surcharges
GBP 3.20Total taxes, fees and surcharges per personGBP 503.40
This is what I have said in the claim:
On 12 February 2018, I reserved 2 business class tickets with the Defendant (BA)from LGW to TPA on behalf of Companion and me out on 5 January and back on 19 January 2019.Payment was made with 137,500 Avios airmiles+an American Express Companion voucher+£1,006.80 cash. Companion was downgraded to premium economy on the return leg. A goodwill payment of USD259 was paid at TPA but despite correspondence with BA, no reimbursement per EC261/2004 has been paid.The claim is for a refund of the cash equivalent of £825 (cost to buy Avios from BA)plus refund of cash fees of £161 after deduction of taxes at 75% reimbursement for the sector per Article 10.2.c. The claimant claims interest under section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at the rate of 8% a year from 26/01/2019 to 21/03/2019 on £986.00 and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of £0.28.
And here is the relevant payment information from the e-ticket:
Payment Information
Ticket Number(s)**************************Membership No**************
Redemption Type Companion e-voucher
Card Type American Express
Card Holder** ***********************
Card Number**************
Billing Address************************************
Avios points debited137500V
oucher TypeBA American Express Companion Voucher
Voucher Number(s)*****************
Payment TotalGBP 1006.80
Payment Date12 Feb 2018
Flight tickets issued b yBritish Airways,
UKIATA Number************
Endorsements*m*redemption/restrictions may apply/no cash refund/non endorsableFare DetailsGBP 0.00 + Tax/Fee/Charge GBP 1006.80 = GBP 1006.80
Fare breakdownThe price of your ticket includes a carrier imposed charge or fuel surcharge, where applicable, per sector levied by the carrier. All taxes, fees and charges are to be paid by the member (not British Airways).Please note that air travel is not subject to VAT therefore we do not issue VAT receipts.Where applicable, if you wish to change the date or time of your flight, or cancel your booking, the cost of doing so will generally be lower on ba than over the telephone or at a ticket desk. Service charges are subject to change.
Government, authority and airport charges
Per adult
Air Passenger Duty - United KingdomGBP 156.00
Animal & Plant Health User Fee (Aphis) - USA GBP 2.80
Passenger Civil Aviation Security Service Fee - USAGBP 4.00
Immigration User Fee - USAGBP 5.00USGBP 13.10
Customs User Fee - USAGBP 4.10USGBP 13.10YQGBP 289.00
Passenger Service Charge - United KingdomGBP 13.10
Total government, authority and airport charges*
GBP 500.20
British Airways fees and surchargesPer adultPassenger Facility ChargeGBP 3.20
Total British Airways fees and surcharges
GBP 3.20Total taxes, fees and surcharges per personGBP 503.40
Apr 16, 2019, 5:10 pm
#45
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 1,271
The OP can always apply for AMEX to be added as a defendant.