Granuaile

Booked 2-4-1 CW return tickets from LGW to TPA using cash, Avios and 2-4-1. Companion downgraded to WTP on return flight.

Neither I nor they have made any settlement offers although in the original correspondence they did say that "your booking has been passed on to our refunds team to process the applicable 75% refund for the downgrade in cabin for [companion]". As nothing was forthcoming 6 weeks later despite several chasers, I issued a MCOL. Since BA have refunded Ł43 but have today served their defence and are defending the claim on following bases:

The Defendant avers the Claimant paid for the purchase of one ticket on the Booking and by using the Companion Voucher did not pay the Avios for the companion, x. The price for the ticket for [companion] did not include the Avios claimed.

The Defendant further avers in determining the downgrade compensation applicable, the Ł1006.80 paid for the Booking was all towards taxes, fees and charges for the Passengers. There was no cash fare paid for the tickets and therefore in accordance with Steef Mennens v Emirates Direktion für Deutschland no cash amount to be calculated towards the downgrade refund nor is there any amount payable since there was no fare paid for the ticket for [companion]. The Defendant avers no refund is payable for the downgrade of [companion] since no fare was paid for her travel on Flight 2.

BA's defence is summarised as follows:

• The Claimant is not entitled to compensation under the Conditions as BA has discharged its obligations to the Claimant under the same, which make no provision for compensation or damages as claimed by the Claimant in any event;
• The Claimant is not entitled to compensation under the Executive Club Conditions, as BA has discharged its obligations to the Claimant under the same, which make no provision for compensation or damages as claimed by the Claimant in any event;
• The Claimant is not entitled to a refund under the Regulation as there is no refund payable when no fare has been paid;
• A refund of Ł43.00 for the difference in taxes when [companion] travelled in World Traveller Plus of Flight 2 has been paid; and
• BA avers that it has acted in compliance with its Conditions at all times.
• For the reasons set out above, BA denies that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or at all and requests that the claim be dismissed.

I do intend to fight this but would welcome any thoughts anyone may have.

Thank you for your help in advance!

corporate-wage-slave

Welcome to Flyertalk and welcome to the BA forum Granuaile, this site can only exist with active contributors like you.

Without seeing all the costs and breakdowns it is difficult to give a precise answer however Mennens is something that is valid and potentially reduces but not eliminates the EC261 payment for downgrading.

However the biggest howler here, which you can certainly extract to maximum effect, is "The Claimant is not entitled to a refund under the Regulation as there is no refund payable when no fare has been paid". This is clearly a barmy argument since (a) there was almost certainly a Carrier Surcharge and (b) the Mennens calculation relates to necessary taxes (etc) - the surcharge is a BA fare by another name and thus excluded from Mennens. You had two lots of carrier surcharges. There is a get out clause under EC261 if zero fare was paid - this evidently is not the case here.

You also need to stress the inability of BA to respond to your correspondance, I would be making a formal - but high - out of court settlement proposal to them.

The most important thing, though, is to go to this forum's Dashboard, look up the EC261 thread, and work back a year or two to see similar MCOL cases. You need to be well prepared, perhaps do a Skeleton, and thus ready for presumably the conciliation telephone stage. Essentially you paid for two, they downgraded you, you would not have deployed the 2-4-1 had you known this, and BA need to rectify this according to the law. And they haven't done this.

Krisz

BlueThroughCrimp

Isn't one of the conditions of the 2-4-1 voucher that the companion has to travel in the same cabin?

mikeyfly

cgtechuk

Interesting.

If this had happened to me and time permitted could I not just say put me on the next flight? then they would be on the hook for the hotel too surely?

Granuaile

This is really helpful. Thank you and I will keep you posted as to how I get on.
Do you have the link for the thread you mention? Just that there are a few different ones.

Granuaile

Wasn't an option as next flight wasn't for 24 hours. But I agree that this would have been the best option had our schedule permitted. The ground staff at TPA were shambolic (to put it kindly). My companion was also denied access to the lounge on the basis the class of travel had changed.

corporate-wage-slave

No, there should only be one BA Forum Dashboard, typically something like the 4th item from the top of the page. This is the main knowledge repository of this forum. Then you will find the EC261 guide in section 05.

mikeyfly

BrianDromey

I agree with CWS, that the argument BA have proposed is barmy. They seem to have ignored the use of a companion voucher entirely. I guess that by ignoring the 2-4-1 they are hoping no-one will notice the obvious logical problem that it was used in-lieu of 75,000 Avios each-way.

I don't think the value of such a voucher has ever been tested in court. The word of the regulation for cancellation does make it clear that cash/points/other instruments are all equally valid for payment, I think the spirit of the regulation is the same for downgrades, but it's not specifically stated in the downgrade section.

Tobias-UK

May I also extend an ambassadorial welcome to you, @Granuaile. Your case is not unlike some others we have seen discussed in the forum. It would help a little if you would set out your claim, as it was presented to the county court. If we have a better idea of what you have claimed, and the basis for doing so, we might be able to help concentrate your mind on the legal issues raised in both your claim and the airline's defence.

AdBoy

NYLON Boy

Im a new user

I'd say that you should look at the total price paid and decide that 50% of the cost is your cost and that 50% is your companion's cost, and then refund 75% of your companion's cost, i.e. 75% of 50% i.e. 37.5% of the full price of the flight.

The price can then be split into different parts:

• Mandatory fees and taxes: Not refunded.
• Non-mandatory fees and taxes: Refund 37.5%. The most obvious non-mandatory fee is the revenue increment fee, also known as fuel surcharge or carrier-imposed fee.
• Avios part: Refund 37.5% of all Avios you paid.
• Voucher: Return 37.5% of a voucher. Not technically feasible, so you will probably have to settle for some cash or Avios amount.