2-4-1 downgrade and MCOL

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Old Apr 17, 19, 8:51 am
  #61  
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Originally Posted by Raffles View Post
BA is paid when the voucher is used, AFAIK.

People who settle have to sign an NDA, but a HFP readers who went through the process wrote this guide for me on how to do it:

https://www.headforpoints.com/2017/0...ways-to-court/
Thanks for this. I have already issued my claim in the MCOL but will keep you posted!
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Old Apr 17, 19, 1:05 pm
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Originally Posted by Granuaile View Post
Thanks for this. I have already issued my claim in the MCOL but will keep you posted!
I hope you are successful but still firmly believe that Amex are getting off lightly. The contract to earn the voucher is with Amex. Card fee and qualifying fee is paid to Amex. Terms of usage are printed in the card terms and conditions on the Amex website. Amex sub-contracts the carriage to BA under a third Party supplier agreement under which the cardholder has no input or redress. If you bought a TV from John Lewis as part of the same credit card terms who contracted out the carriage to a third party who, in turn, deliver d a different, lesser quality TV, you would sue John Lewis, not the carriage agent. The same legal principle applies here. You should sue Amex for breach of contract. They would then have to seek reimbursement from their third party supplier, BA. You are, in effect, doing Amex's job and cutting both theirs and BA's costs at the same time. Amex are legally responsible for the performance of their subcontractor. Your contract is with Amex. The founding principle of any legal redress is to be put back in a position that you were in before loss or damage took place. In this case it would be to have your companion voucher reinstated with sufficient Avios to use it again and to have taxes and fees reimbursed to enable you to repay them when you reuse the Voucher. Amex would have no legal defence for not bearing responsibility for their third party supplier failing to uphold the terms of the credit card agreement injust the same way that JL would be responsible for the carrier delivering your TV. Somebody needs to take Amex to court for failing to meet the terms of their credit card agreement. Were this to happen, they would then insist that BA ceases to break these terms in future (or change the wording of the agreement to say that they are not responsible for any actions taken by the third party carrier). However unless or u til they do so, they remain legally responsible for ensuring the terms of the BAPP contract are implemented in full
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Old Apr 17, 19, 1:16 pm
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Definitas View Post


I hope you are successful but still firmly believe that Amex are getting off lightly. The contract to earn the voucher is with Amex. Card fee and qualifying fee is paid to Amex. Terms of usage are printed in the card terms and conditions on the Amex website. Amex sub-contracts the carriage to BA under a third Party supplier agreement under which the cardholder has no input or redress. If you bought a TV from John Lewis as part of the same credit card terms who contracted out the carriage to a third party who, in turn, deliver d a different, lesser quality TV, you would sue John Lewis, not the carriage agent. The same legal principle applies here. You should sue Amex for breach of contract. They would then have to seek reimbursement from their third party supplier, BA. You are, in effect, doing Amex's job and cutting both theirs and BA's costs at the same time. Amex are legally responsible for the performance of their subcontractor. Your contract is with Amex. The founding principle of any legal redress is to be put back in a position that you were in before loss or damage took place. In this case it would be to have your companion voucher reinstated with sufficient Avios to use it again and to have taxes and fees reimbursed to enable you to repay them when you reuse the Voucher. Amex would have no legal defence for not bearing responsibility for their third party supplier failing to uphold the terms of the credit card agreement injust the same way that JL would be responsible for the carrier delivering your TV. Somebody needs to take Amex to court for failing to meet the terms of their credit card agreement. Were this to happen, they would then insist that BA ceases to break these terms in future (or change the wording of the agreement to say that they are not responsible for any actions taken by the third party carrier). However unless or u til they do so, they remain legally responsible for ensuring the terms of the BAPP contract are implemented in full
Amex have not breached their contract. As mentioned above, they are not a party in this litigation and frankly it is not worth the cost nor effort to join them in. The OP should succeed without being distracted by the alleged Amex breach. He has more than enough to make progress with his claim against BA.
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Old Apr 17, 19, 3:36 pm
  #64  
 
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Originally Posted by Tobias-UK View Post


Amex have not breached their contract. As mentioned above, they are not a party in this litigation and frankly it is not worth the cost nor effort to join them in. The OP should succeed without being distracted by the alleged Amex breach. He has more than enough to make progress with his claim against BA.
clearly we are going round in circles and it is probably time to end the exchange. However, I have to disagree about Amex liability. The BAPP terms state clearly and without ambiguity that the card holder and companion will travel in the same cabin. Not may travel, not could travel, not will travel unless BA decides Otherwise, not subject to BA overselling your fare category, et al. Regardless of whether Amex can categorically guarantee that BA, as their agent will comply, Amex make the unequivocal guarantee (the link to the exact wording is in one of my earlier posts) that travel for card holder and companion will be in the same cabin. The terms of the credit card agreement are legally binding and Amex have a legal obligation to honour them. Going after BA is a red herring and nowhere near as robust a case as defaulting on the black and white terms in the BAPP credit card agreement.
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Old Apr 17, 19, 3:57 pm
  #65  
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Originally Posted by Definitas View Post
The BAPP terms state clearly and without ambiguity that the card holder and companion will travel in the same cabin.
it doesn't say that. it says travel together and therefore booked in the same cabin on the same flight, it doesn't say travel together in the same cabin at all times. it isn't clear and unambiguous as you keep suggesting.

this ongoing suggestion of including amex really isn't helping the OP. BA clearly hasn't compensated the OP properly as they are required to do and that is what the OP need to focus on.
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Old Apr 18, 19, 5:25 am
  #66  
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Thanks Definitas. Iam inclined to agree with others that given the sums involved it is not worth trying to sue Amex. Once I reached the spending threshold on the card, Amex issued the companion voucher and I would take the view that from then on it was over to BA. I am however going to write to Amex as they may be interested to know that BA treat the voucher as having no value and that those who use it are being targeted for downgrades.
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Old Apr 18, 19, 5:33 am
  #67  
 
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Originally Posted by SK AAR View Post
I believe the reply from BA is fair and legally correct.

The use of these 2-4-1 vouchers has gotten out of hands - to the detriment of other BAEC members/seeking for award availability. I fail to see why BA should offer what is in reality a 50% discount on points for seats that is already hard to come by?

Anyway, the reality is that for the companion no points were paid (so nothing to refund - 75% of zero is zero) and as the OP already got a refund of the difference in tax, there is nothing more to claim.

Cheapskates when bookings are made to save on the points but a lot whining if downgraded and hit by the reality that save for the tax this is a free ticket (and apparently is correctly treated as a free ticket by BA now - praise to BA for this). Just my 2 cents...
Seriously?

If what you say is reasonable, then it should be advertised as a space available upgrade rather than a 2-4-1.
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Old Apr 18, 19, 5:35 am
  #68  
 
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Originally Posted by AdBoy View Post
And yet we are regularly told on here that BA doesnít target 241 ticket holders over others for downgrade! That seems vanishingly unlikely.
My parents were downgraded on a 2-4-1 UUA (WT+ to CW) 2 months ago, and have been refused any compensation in the exact same way.
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Old Apr 18, 19, 5:50 am
  #69  
 
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How do you use a 2-4-1 voucher for a UUA?
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Old Apr 18, 19, 5:52 am
  #70  
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Originally Posted by bluemoon68 View Post
Seriously?

If what you say is reasonable, then it should be advertised as a space available upgrade rather than a 2-4-1.
No more than any other ticketr should be advertised that way. A space available upgrade implies that the upgrade will be granted on departure if there is space - this is not the case here; the passenger is booked into business class based on appropriate availability;just that in situation where an involuntary downgrade is needed, it may be that a companion voucher will be picked ahead of others
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Old Apr 18, 19, 5:58 am
  #71  
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Originally Posted by Definitas View Post
The BAPP terms state clearly and without ambiguity that the card holder and companion will travel in the same cabin. Not may travel, not could travel, not will travel unless BA decides Otherwise, not subject to BA overselling your fare category, et al.
Are you actually suggesting suing Amex when someone on a 2 for 1 voucher gets upgraded to a higher cabin and not the companion?

Fully agree with others that Amex is entirely unconcerned by the issue and that the OP should focus on BA. If you buy a ticket on Expedia for BA flights, you arrive at the airport, BA agrees that your ticket is perfectly valid but tell you they don't have a seat for you, you'll sue BA, not Expedia.
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Old Apr 18, 19, 6:04 am
  #72  
 
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Originally Posted by stewaran View Post
My parents were downgraded on a 2-4-1 UUA (WT+ to CW) 2 months ago, and have been refused any compensation in the exact same way.


Like SteveF says above...I was under the impression the Amex 2-4-1 could only be used on a straight redemption? Was it maybe a GUF2 they used?
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Old Apr 18, 19, 3:14 pm
  #73  
 
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Originally Posted by Granuaile View Post
Thanks Definitas. Iam inclined to agree with others that given the sums involved it is not worth trying to sue Amex. Once I reached the spending threshold on the card, Amex issued the companion voucher and I would take the view that from then on it was over to BA. I am however going to write to Amex as they may be interested to know that BA treat the voucher as having no value and that those who use it are being targeted for downgrades.
I sincerely hope that you get adequate compensation for what seems to be fairly shoddy treatment. I would be very interested to hear what Amex has to say, not least because I was advised on. TPA-LGW flight last March that the flight was full and we could be downgraded. In the end people were FLUBbed and we kept our seats but it was stress we didnít need. I am minded to ask the FSA to rule on Amex's liability and whether they should have to declare in the card terms who bears responsibility if the terms of the card agreement are not honoured. I am 100% certain that Amex cannot issue the companion voucher and legally wash their hands of responsibility for it being implemented.
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Old Apr 18, 19, 9:29 pm
  #74  
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I think the irony here is that BA will still be paid for that voucher by AMEX even when they havenít provided the exact service it was supposed to cover the cost of. Furthermore they have the cheek to refuse to compensate passengers when theyíve downgraded them when using this voucher which AMEX has paid them for. At best this systematic targeting of 2-4-1 users is particularly sharp practice but further than that itís shameful.

I am amazed AMEX hasnít taken them to task on this yet. Thereís more than enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that BA is up to no good here. If AMEX were to become involved and tell BA in no uncertain terms to stop this it might be a reason to begin going after them in any formal action. It may spur them into action.
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Old Apr 18, 19, 11:43 pm
  #75  
 
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Originally Posted by jp-mco View Post
I think the irony here is that BA will still be paid for that voucher by AMEX even when they havenít provided the exact service it was supposed to cover the cost of.
BA will still be paid because both the holder of the voucher and their companion travelled. The voucher covers the cost of travel, which was provided, while the cabin is determined by the amount of Avios the holder pays. If AmEx does not pay for the travel in the downgraded cabin then who will?
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