2-4-1 downgrade and MCOL
Apr 17, 2019, 8:51 am
#61
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2019
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 8
BA is paid when the voucher is used, AFAIK.
People who settle have to sign an NDA, but a HFP readers who went through the process wrote this guide for me on how to do it:
https://www.headforpoints.com/2017/0...ways-to-court/
People who settle have to sign an NDA, but a HFP readers who went through the process wrote this guide for me on how to do it:
https://www.headforpoints.com/2017/0...ways-to-court/
Apr 17, 2019, 1:05 pm
#62
Join Date: May 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 455
I hope you are successful but still firmly believe that Amex are getting off lightly. The contract to earn the voucher is with Amex. Card fee and qualifying fee is paid to Amex. Terms of usage are printed in the card terms and conditions on the Amex website. Amex sub-contracts the carriage to BA under a third Party supplier agreement under which the cardholder has no input or redress. If you bought a TV from John Lewis as part of the same credit card terms who contracted out the carriage to a third party who, in turn, deliver d a different, lesser quality TV, you would sue John Lewis, not the carriage agent. The same legal principle applies here. You should sue Amex for breach of contract. They would then have to seek reimbursement from their third party supplier, BA. You are, in effect, doing Amex's job and cutting both theirs and BA's costs at the same time. Amex are legally responsible for the performance of their subcontractor. Your contract is with Amex. The founding principle of any legal redress is to be put back in a position that you were in before loss or damage took place. In this case it would be to have your companion voucher reinstated with sufficient Avios to use it again and to have taxes and fees reimbursed to enable you to repay them when you reuse the Voucher. Amex would have no legal defence for not bearing responsibility for their third party supplier failing to uphold the terms of the credit card agreement injust the same way that JL would be responsible for the carrier delivering your TV. Somebody needs to take Amex to court for failing to meet the terms of their credit card agreement. Were this to happen, they would then insist that BA ceases to break these terms in future (or change the wording of the agreement to say that they are not responsible for any actions taken by the third party carrier). However unless or u til they do so, they remain legally responsible for ensuring the terms of the BAPP contract are implemented in full
Apr 17, 2019, 1:16 pm
#63
Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club, easyJet and Ryanair
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: UK/Las Vegas
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Posts: 15,914
I hope you are successful but still firmly believe that Amex are getting off lightly. The contract to earn the voucher is with Amex. Card fee and qualifying fee is paid to Amex. Terms of usage are printed in the card terms and conditions on the Amex website. Amex sub-contracts the carriage to BA under a third Party supplier agreement under which the cardholder has no input or redress. If you bought a TV from John Lewis as part of the same credit card terms who contracted out the carriage to a third party who, in turn, deliver d a different, lesser quality TV, you would sue John Lewis, not the carriage agent. The same legal principle applies here. You should sue Amex for breach of contract. They would then have to seek reimbursement from their third party supplier, BA. You are, in effect, doing Amex's job and cutting both theirs and BA's costs at the same time. Amex are legally responsible for the performance of their subcontractor. Your contract is with Amex. The founding principle of any legal redress is to be put back in a position that you were in before loss or damage took place. In this case it would be to have your companion voucher reinstated with sufficient Avios to use it again and to have taxes and fees reimbursed to enable you to repay them when you reuse the Voucher. Amex would have no legal defence for not bearing responsibility for their third party supplier failing to uphold the terms of the credit card agreement injust the same way that JL would be responsible for the carrier delivering your TV. Somebody needs to take Amex to court for failing to meet the terms of their credit card agreement. Were this to happen, they would then insist that BA ceases to break these terms in future (or change the wording of the agreement to say that they are not responsible for any actions taken by the third party carrier). However unless or u til they do so, they remain legally responsible for ensuring the terms of the BAPP contract are implemented in full
Apr 17, 2019, 3:36 pm
#64
Join Date: May 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 455
Amex have not breached their contract. As mentioned above, they are not a party in this litigation and frankly it is not worth the cost nor effort to join them in. The OP should succeed without being distracted by the alleged Amex breach. He has more than enough to make progress with his claim against BA.
Apr 17, 2019, 3:57 pm
#65
Ambassador, British Airways; FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Leeds, UK
Programs: BA GGL/CCR, GfL, HH Diamond
Posts: 42,891
this ongoing suggestion of including amex really isn't helping the OP. BA clearly hasn't compensated the OP properly as they are required to do and that is what the OP need to focus on.
Apr 18, 2019, 5:25 am
#66
Original Poster
Join Date: Apr 2019
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 8
Thanks Definitas. Iam inclined to agree with others that given the sums involved it is not worth trying to sue Amex. Once I reached the spending threshold on the card, Amex issued the companion voucher and I would take the view that from then on it was over to BA. I am however going to write to Amex as they may be interested to know that BA treat the voucher as having no value and that those who use it are being targeted for downgrades.
Apr 18, 2019, 5:33 am
#67
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: UK
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 1,021
I believe the reply from BA is fair and legally correct.
The use of these 2-4-1 vouchers has gotten out of hands - to the detriment of other BAEC members/seeking for award availability. I fail to see why BA should offer what is in reality a 50% discount on points for seats that is already hard to come by?
Anyway, the reality is that for the companion no points were paid (so nothing to refund - 75% of zero is zero) and as the OP already got a refund of the difference in tax, there is nothing more to claim.
Cheapskates when bookings are made to save on the points but a lot whining if downgraded and hit by the reality that save for the tax this is a free ticket (and apparently is correctly treated as a free ticket by BA now - praise to BA for this). Just my 2 cents...
The use of these 2-4-1 vouchers has gotten out of hands - to the detriment of other BAEC members/seeking for award availability. I fail to see why BA should offer what is in reality a 50% discount on points for seats that is already hard to come by?
Anyway, the reality is that for the companion no points were paid (so nothing to refund - 75% of zero is zero) and as the OP already got a refund of the difference in tax, there is nothing more to claim.
Cheapskates when bookings are made to save on the points but a lot whining if downgraded and hit by the reality that save for the tax this is a free ticket (and apparently is correctly treated as a free ticket by BA now - praise to BA for this). Just my 2 cents...
If what you say is reasonable, then it should be advertised as a space available upgrade rather than a 2-4-1.
Apr 18, 2019, 5:35 am
#68
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Herts, UK
Programs: BAEC GGL, HH Diamond.
Posts: 3,176
Apr 18, 2019, 5:52 am
#70
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,552
No more than any other ticketr should be advertised that way. A space available upgrade implies that the upgrade will be granted on departure if there is space - this is not the case here; the passenger is booked into business class based on appropriate availability;just that in situation where an involuntary downgrade is needed, it may be that a companion voucher will be picked ahead of others
Apr 18, 2019, 5:58 am
#71
FlyerTalk Evangelist, Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Posts: 30,502
Fully agree with others that Amex is entirely unconcerned by the issue and that the OP should focus on BA. If you buy a ticket on Expedia for BA flights, you arrive at the airport, BA agrees that your ticket is perfectly valid but tell you they don't have a seat for you, you'll sue BA, not Expedia.
Apr 18, 2019, 6:04 am
#72
Join Date: Nov 2017
Programs: BA, Hilton
Posts: 2,091
Like SteveF says above...I was under the impression the Amex 2-4-1 could only be used on a straight redemption? Was it maybe a GUF2 they used?
Apr 18, 2019, 3:14 pm
#73
Join Date: May 2016
Location: UK
Posts: 455
Thanks Definitas. Iam inclined to agree with others that given the sums involved it is not worth trying to sue Amex. Once I reached the spending threshold on the card, Amex issued the companion voucher and I would take the view that from then on it was over to BA. I am however going to write to Amex as they may be interested to know that BA treat the voucher as having no value and that those who use it are being targeted for downgrades.
Apr 18, 2019, 9:29 pm
#74
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 1,225
I think the irony here is that BA will still be paid for that voucher by AMEX even when they haven’t provided the exact service it was supposed to cover the cost of. Furthermore they have the cheek to refuse to compensate passengers when they’ve downgraded them when using this voucher which AMEX has paid them for. At best this systematic targeting of 2-4-1 users is particularly sharp practice but further than that it’s shameful.
I am amazed AMEX hasn’t taken them to task on this yet. There’s more than enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that BA is up to no good here. If AMEX were to become involved and tell BA in no uncertain terms to stop this it might be a reason to begin going after them in any formal action. It may spur them into action.
I am amazed AMEX hasn’t taken them to task on this yet. There’s more than enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that BA is up to no good here. If AMEX were to become involved and tell BA in no uncertain terms to stop this it might be a reason to begin going after them in any formal action. It may spur them into action.
Apr 18, 2019, 11:43 pm
#75
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine
Programs: Mucci, BA Gold, TK Elite, HHonors Lifetime Diamond
Posts: 7,683
BA will still be paid because both the holder of the voucher and their companion travelled. The voucher covers the cost of travel, which was provided, while the cabin is determined by the amount of Avios the holder pays. If AmEx does not pay for the travel in the downgraded cabin then who will?