2-4-1 downgrade and MCOL

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Old Apr 16, 19, 5:14 pm
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Originally Posted by Bullswood View Post
As a matter of interest and assuming there hasn't been a transcription error, why is YQ in the above surcharge breakdown shown as a "government, authority and airport charge"?
I was wondering that too. The YQ for 289 GBP is the BA carrier surcharge, not a government tax.
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Old Apr 16, 19, 5:34 pm
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From what I can see , BA charged GBP289 in Carrier imposed surcharge, so one way would be GBP144.50 ; 75% would be GBP108.75

At TPA, an amount of USD259 was paid which is approximately GBP198 which is about GBP90 more than the reimbursement which would seem to be due

Will be interesting to see how it goes, but under EC261, it would look to me that what is required under that would have been met; anything to do with getting an amount to get back avios for the journey would seem to be a contractual thing rather than a EC261 thing

Originally Posted by Granuaile View Post
It was expressed to me informally by BA that they do target people on 2-4-1 vouchers. Quite clear that this is their strategy.
which makes sense if these are the ones where the least reimbursement would be due.
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Old Apr 16, 19, 5:50 pm
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The 2-4-1 voucher does have a cost. That cost is either the commision going to Amex for £10,000 of spend or the fee Amex pay to BA for the voucher. BA also earns income from Amex for all spend on your card.

Also, zero cost of the voucher to the consumer does not mean zero value. The value is the Avios amount saved by the deployment of the voucher. That is easily calculated as the 1.3p per Avios that BA charges when selling them.

In short, the consumer should receive 75% of 75,000 Avios ŗ 1.3p or £731.25 plus 75% of the one-way carrier surcharge which will be roughly another £180.

Amex should really also be called to account here because, regardless of any Section 75 liability, they are peddling vouchers from a partner who is trying to tell the end consumer that the voucher is worthless. This does not at all make the card attractive and wide advertising of BAís attitude would certainly irritate Amex.
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Old Apr 16, 19, 6:55 pm
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I am not sure how you worked out the carrier surcharge refund to be £180. when it seems that the total carrier surcharge is £289.00 => one way surcharge would be £144.50 and so 75% would be £108.38 which is less than the amount provided on the day at the airport
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Old Apr 17, 19, 12:14 am
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Did BA also refund the Avios difference between CW and WTP or have they not as they argue the Companion hadnít spent any Avios either?

Good luck to the OP, if BA win or are able to do this is drastically reduces the value of the BA Amex and Companion voucher. Am sure Amex wonít be happy to hear about this...
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Old Apr 17, 19, 12:21 am
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I think it's time for Raffles to revisit this topic on HfP and get some thoughts from BA and Amex why they believe this is OK...
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Old Apr 17, 19, 12:53 am
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Various people have sued BA on this, all have won. They all won quite expensively too, since BA paid 1.6p per Avios based on 75% of the Avios fare.
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Old Apr 17, 19, 2:27 am
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Did you ask AmEx for the 2-4-1 voucher back? I'd say you have a valid claim for it, as your companion didn't travel in the same cabin as you.
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Old Apr 17, 19, 2:47 am
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Originally Posted by Raffles View Post
Various people have sued BA on this, all have won. They all won quite expensively too, since BA paid 1.6p per Avios based on 75% of the Avios fare.
This is reassuring to hear. I am not surprised to hear BA are still trying it on though. Are you able to share anymore details or are NDAs in place?
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Old Apr 17, 19, 2:49 am
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Originally Posted by jp-mco View Post
This is reassuring to hear. I am not surprised to hear BA are still trying it on though. Are you able to share anymore details or are NDAs in place?
There are several cases in the EC261 thread for last year and 2017. Essentially a properly constructed case, giving a value for the 2-4-1 in Avios then translated into cash terms does work under MCOL.
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Old Apr 17, 19, 3:07 am
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I believe the reply from BA is fair and legally correct.

The use of these 2-4-1 vouchers has gotten out of hands - to the detriment of other BAEC members/seeking for award availability. I fail to see why BA should offer what is in reality a 50% discount on points for seats that is already hard to come by?

Anyway, the reality is that for the companion no points were paid (so nothing to refund - 75% of zero is zero) and as the OP already got a refund of the difference in tax, there is nothing more to claim.

Cheapskates when bookings are made to save on the points but a lot whining if downgraded and hit by the reality that save for the tax this is a free ticket (and apparently is correctly treated as a free ticket by BA now - praise to BA for this). Just my 2 cents...

Last edited by SK AAR; Apr 17, 19 at 3:16 am
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Old Apr 17, 19, 3:18 am
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Originally Posted by SK AAR View Post
I believe the reply from BA is fair and legally correct.

The use of these 2-4-1 vouchers has gotten out of hands - to the detriment of other BAEC members/seeking for award availability. I fail to see why BA should offer what is in reality a 50% discount on points for seats that is already hard to come by?

Anyway, the reality is that for the companion no points were paid (so nothing to refund - 75% of zero is zero) and as the OP already got a refund of the difference in tax, there is nothing more to claim.

Cheap skating when the booking is made to save on the points but a lot whining if downgraded and hit by the reality that save for the tax this is a free ticket (and apparently is correctly treated as a free ticket by BA now - praise to BA for this). Just my 2 cents...
It does sounds more like you're annoyed they don't have a credit card in Denmark which offers a 2-4-1 voucher than anything else.
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Old Apr 17, 19, 5:38 am
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Originally Posted by SK AAR View Post
I believe the reply from BA is fair and legally correct.

The use of these 2-4-1 vouchers has gotten out of hands - to the detriment of other BAEC members/seeking for award availability. I fail to see why BA should offer what is in reality a 50% discount on points for seats that is already hard to come by?

Anyway, the reality is that for the companion no points were paid (so nothing to refund - 75% of zero is zero) and as the OP already got a refund of the difference in tax, there is nothing more to claim.

Cheapskates when bookings are made to save on the points but a lot whining if downgraded and hit by the reality that save for the tax this is a free ticket (and apparently is correctly treated as a free ticket by BA now - praise to BA for this). Just my 2 cents...
If BA feels the way you do then then they are certainly within their rights to cancel/not renew their contract with Amex and gradually phase them out. However I was under the impression that it's a pretty lucrative enterprise for them. I'm also not sure why people who use them are cheapskates? You spend an annual fee of £195 for the card, have to spend £10,000 to earn the voucher, spend lots of miles and pay over £1000 in fees and taxes. It's nice to do but it's not a massive bargain compared with some ex-EU deals. It's not gaming the system, it's taking advantage of something that BA themselves push aggressively.

If BA aren't happy with the situation then they should say so publicly, make it clear that future downgrades are targetted at Companion voucher holders and no compensation is due in their view. However as that would no doubt harm their business relationship with Amex I doubt they would. I get that you're frustrated with lack of availability but I'm not sure why it's BA Amex card holders fault rather than BA?
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Old Apr 17, 19, 5:39 am
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Originally Posted by SK AAR View Post
I believe the reply from BA is fair and legally correct.

The use of these 2-4-1 vouchers has gotten out of hands - to the detriment of other BAEC members/seeking for award availability. I fail to see why BA should offer what is in reality a 50% discount on points for seats that is already hard to come by?

Anyway, the reality is that for the companion no points were paid (so nothing to refund - 75% of zero is zero) and as the OP already got a refund of the difference in tax, there is nothing more to claim.

Cheapskates when bookings are made to save on the points but a lot whining if downgraded and hit by the reality that save for the tax this is a free ticket (and apparently is correctly treated as a free ticket by BA now - praise to BA for this). Just my 2 cents...
Doesn't BAEC sell the vouchers to the CC companies anyway? These customers have to hit a yearly spend to receive it so it ain't free, the Avios themselves aren't either. You would think they would know how many they issue so as to not be 'out of hand'? Sounds like sour grapes mostly.
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Old Apr 17, 19, 6:58 am
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BA is paid when the voucher is used, AFAIK.

People who settle have to sign an NDA, but a HFP readers who went through the process wrote this guide for me on how to do it:

https://www.headforpoints.com/2017/0...ways-to-court/
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