2-4-1 downgrade and MCOL

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Old Apr 16, 19, 12:43 pm
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Some good advice upthread in preparing the detail of the claim and underpinning reasoning.

In terms of voucher value; I do recall reading in these parts valuing avios at the cost baec charges to purchase them had passed for a reasonable proxy at a tribunal/lower court. No doubt there are always case specific nuances but to not value the voucher would be missing an argument I'd think.
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Old Apr 16, 19, 12:58 pm
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Originally Posted by littlefish View Post
I do recall reading in these parts valuing avios at the cost baec charges to purchase them had passed for a reasonable proxy at a tribunal/lower court.
Wouldn't the court simply ask BA to deposit Avios to a BAEC account instead of converting the Avios to pounds?
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Old Apr 16, 19, 1:05 pm
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Originally Posted by Some person View Post
Wouldn't the court simply ask BA to deposit Avios to a BAEC account instead of converting the Avios to pounds?
CEDR could do this, but the courts, at least for MCOL, are - as the name suggests - money based.
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Old Apr 16, 19, 1:11 pm
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Don't be so sure. The BA position is quite defensible.

OP did not pay anything for the 2-4-1 in the first place. He also did not pay anything for the ticket acquired with the 2-4-1 (other than the taxes and fees). That leaves 75% of 0 being 0 as a refund.

At most, it might be held that 50% of the non-tax surcharge for the return segment, e.g. roughly 25% of the cash component (actually less if one considers APD on the outbound) and take 70% of that and that works out to £176.19. As noted, if one further reduces the cash component because the taxes are higher on the outbound due to APD, this comes out to somewhere in the £110-120 range. And even that is doubtful.
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I would not spend this just yet.
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Old Apr 16, 19, 1:19 pm
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Originally Posted by Often1 View Post
Don't be so sure. The BA position is quite defensible.
OP did not pay anything for the 2-4-1 in the first place. He also did not pay anything for the ticket acquired with the 2-4-1 (other than the taxes and fees). That leaves 75% of 0 being 0 as a refund.
Assuming it's the BAPP then the card that earns the voucher comes with a fee, and the OP then had to spend £10,000 on that card so to say they didn't pay anything for the voucher may not be entirely accurate.
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Old Apr 16, 19, 1:21 pm
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Originally Posted by AdBoy View Post
And yet we are regularly told on here that BA doesn’t target 241 ticket holders over others for downgrade! That seems vanishingly unlikely.
I will start carrying a copy of the T&Cs and refusing to only downgrade one passenger i.e. we must both travel in the same cabin. While BA think they can downgrade 1 pax for free there’s no argument they can downgrade both without penalty, not sure how much success this will gave but worth a shot!
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Old Apr 16, 19, 1:47 pm
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Amex Companion Voucher

S
Originally Posted by rlnnpt View Post


I will start carrying a copy of the T&Cs and refusing to only downgrade one passenger i.e. we must both travel in the same cabin. While BA think they can downgrade 1 pax for free there’s no argument they can downgrade both without penalty, not sure how much success this will gave but worth a shot!
Amex terms from their UK website clearly state travel in the same cabin
[img]blob:https://www.flyertalk.com/de68ec83-2bf7-4a19-b4cc-73b18696d960[/img]

Last edited by Definitas; Apr 16, 19 at 1:51 pm Reason: Screenshot did not upload
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Old Apr 16, 19, 1:56 pm
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Oh dear.

It may potentially be worth alerting your credit card provider both from the perspective that the T&Cs of the 2-4-1 were not honored and (assuming you billed the taxes/fees to the same card) that the purchased product was not delivered.

It would also be nice if the various travel sites/blogs that make money from credit card application click-throughs were to pick up on the surprising coherent language from BA quoted by the OP above...


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Old Apr 16, 19, 1:57 pm
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Old Apr 16, 19, 2:00 pm
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I wonder what view Amex take of all this, after all its their CC that was used to claim the 2-4-1.

Any thoughts on whether pressure from Amex would force BA to change their behaviour...... or even a claim against Amex?

Last edited by petez; Apr 16, 19 at 2:22 pm
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Old Apr 16, 19, 2:02 pm
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Originally Posted by dajdavies View Post
Assuming it's the BAPP then the card that earns the voucher comes with a fee, and the OP then had to spend £10,000 on that card so to say they didn't pay anything for the voucher may not be entirely accurate.
Presumably the cardholder, OP in this case, received £10,000 worth of goods and services in return for the amounts he paid to Amex. That too is a wash netting to 0.

I also do not believe that the BA-imposed requirement that both passengers travel in the same class of service nets OP anything. BA is free to seat any passenger anywhere it wishes and routinely violates fare rules and other conditions in IRROPS.
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Old Apr 16, 19, 2:06 pm
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Is EC 261 the right angle to take here, or is it better dealt was as Consumer Right Act 2015 matter? Ultimately, you had a contractual relationship for a service that you did not get. Taking this angle might mean BA doesn't have the stock defence ready to go, and would therefore need to spend time and money preparing for it. This might convince them to settle (or settle on better terms).

If you do persist down the EC261 route, the T&Cs say this:

Originally Posted by Terms and Conditions
  1. The Companion Voucher allows the main British Airways American Express Card Account holder, when making a flight booking using Avios, to book another seat on the journey for a Companion without having to pay the Avios flight price for that Companion.
So perhaps there are no miles attributable to the other passenger's costs. But what happens with the voucher? Surely that's fully attributable to the other passenger. EC 261 says the reimbursement is 75% of the "price of the ticket". Does that include 37.5% of the monetary equivalent of the voucher?

I'm not a lawyer - but you might have legal insurance as part of your travel insurance?
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Old Apr 16, 19, 2:12 pm
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Originally Posted by Often1 View Post
Presumably the cardholder, OP in this case, received £10,000 worth of goods and services in return for the amounts he paid to Amex. That too is a wash netting to 0.

I also do not believe that the BA-imposed requirement that both passengers travel in the same class of service nets OP anything. BA is free to seat any passenger anywhere it wishes and routinely violates fare rules and other conditions in IRROPS.
I am sure there are a thousand different ways to tell the OP to “expect nothing” or to “give up”.

Any chance we could take them all as read and focus this thread on positive advice and suggested actions to take?
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Old Apr 16, 19, 2:15 pm
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Originally Posted by dajdavies View Post
Assuming it's the BAPP then the card that earns the voucher comes with a fee, and the OP then had to spend £10,000 on that card so to say they didn't pay anything for the voucher may not be entirely accurate.
But how on earth would you determine the value of the voucher? You didn't just get the voucher for those £10,000; you also got something else, like food or whatever you bought using the card.

Is it possible to sell the voucher to someone else? Lots of Japanese companies, like JAL and ANA, offer shareholder perks where you get a voucher for something (like cheaper tickets), and then there are shops where you can buy and sell vouchers.
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Old Apr 16, 19, 2:26 pm
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Originally Posted by Some person View Post
But how on earth would you determine the value of the voucher?
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Go on expertflyer, and look up the historical I class base fare for the dates of ticket issue and flight. Use that?
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