Can I help you

kipper

Not all pesto includes pine nuts. I'm allergic, but there are some variations of pesto that I can eat. I just have to read the ingredients before considering it.

I thought of this thread this morning as I swapped purses. I didn't have time to move everything to my new purse, but I did take the time to move my Epi-Pens to the new purse.

GCab

Thanks for the links.

I did say this, and I'm sorry if the overall tone of my post made you think I didn't, but:

Can I help you

kipper

And my point was that not all pesto contains pine nuts, so perhaps the pesto being served doesn't have pine nuts.

GCab

How about just "don't serve it to those children"?

What would happen if they walk into a random Italian restaurant?

There are genuine issues here about travelling in a sealed metal cannister; it may well be genuinely the case that having dry roasted peanuts opened next to you and spraying dust everywhere could be very dangerous; but "don't serve meals to half the passengers on a long haul flight, what's the problem?" isn't necessarily the answer without a bit more research to back it up.

Food substances bound into a sauce aren't the same as dry dust in close proximity, and perhaps it's completely unreasonable to insist on them not being served for others.

GCab

I think @cihY was responding to @Coffeemadman and

Can I help you

GCab

I'm sorry but I am going to respond further to this despite my earlier post, because there is a tide of irrationality sweeping the world at the moment and looking at those sources I detect a common thread

All these links are from the "I can't believe this happened to me AND THEY WOULDN'T LISTEN [*optional* EVEN THOUGH I AM AN ACTUAL MOM]" school of populist, "the liberal globalist authorities/big business are out to get us" journalism (Sun/Mail/Fox/Mirror - seriously?), and seem to be more about the psychological reactions of those involved, than the actual biological ones.

I haven't yet trawled each one for details but a lot of it seems perceptual rather than objective, in the same mode as a lot of the of the anti-vaccine stuff out there ("this happened, and it might be related to X, but in any case I'm very very upset about it, and that's what counts").

The tone (if not the actual words) of most of those articles, read as if Brexit/Trump would be the solution of nut allergies, if only "They" would listen to Real People/Hard-working Families. Just saying.

No reflection on the many seriously anaphylactic people out there (including those cited in the articles), or those here who are related to them - my comment is mainly around the editorial colour around these articles. The links are mainly from trash press, and are not evidence. I admit though that I did ask for actual stories and you have provided these, so I apologise for moving the goalposts, and I do applaud and support you for pushing the "jeez, why not just do what it takes to help others" angle - really can't criticise that at all.

Happy to discuss anything more scientific for debate purposes - I just don't think these articles are that.

Badenoch

Every form of social accommodation has limits. Asking other passengers not to each nut snacks isn't onerous. If suddenly people are being denied meals because someone waltzed on to the flight and announced they or their children have an allergy would cross the line. If however they contacted the airline in advance and explained the situation the food offerings could be adjusted to ensure there wouldn't be a problem and no one would be the wiser.

GCab

Just tell everyone, and don't feed it to the kids affected.

I don't think anyone could criticise you for that approach.

At the end of the day it's just normal life, but 30,000 ft higher than usual and with a few (less than people think) air conditioning and proximity issues involved, and perhaps a bit more distance from medical help (unless you've ever been stuck in a tunnel on the Circle Line).

Nobody gets on an underground/subway train or enters a restaurant and asks the driver/maitre d' to notify everybody else there of their allergies and limit their options accordingly.

On a plane it is a bit different - you're eating on board sometimes (cf. tube), you can't move your seat, and there are some air circulation issues which may be harder to moderate. But it is still normal life. .

TraumaDoc

Except that's not true is it? The inquest is available to read here: https://www.leighday.co.uk/LeighDay/...Summing-Up.pdf. No mention of tachycardia.

Severe anaphylaxis causes a profound tachycardia. As does adrenaline. The tachycardia may kill you eventually, but not before the other effects of anaphylaxis. Therefore the treatment for anaphylaxis is adrenaline... Often quite a lot of adrenaline.

To address a few other points:
Of course particles distributed around an air conditioning system won't cause anaphylaxis, even if they did, surgical masks would not make a blind bit of difference. Mucosal contact (i.e. mouth) is key, however skin contact can cause it.

Rates of anaphylaxis and allergy do seem to be increasing (this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26357949 reckons a 3% prevalence in Europe... however that feels a bit too high to me). Various theories do the rounds, many of which (to my knowledge) have little evidence to back them up. The stuff about our lives being 'too clean' and therefore us not being exposed to as many pathogens may have some element of truth. People in the past may have just dropped down dead without explanation more than they do now .However I suspect it is more widely reported, and the wonderful world of the internet, and our increasingly risk averse society means we hear about more of it.

To those blindly banging on about people 'taking responsibility for themselves'. Well, yes, people have to. However it is incumbent on us to be responsible citizens too. If your child developed a severe nut allergy, I'm sure you wouldn't be sat next to them stuffing your face with nuts would you? It's 14 hours tops without any nuts... You'll be fine. This strikes me as a similar attitude to people who whinge about the 'selfish' person who jumps in front of a train, and all you do is whinge about the inconvenience to your day.

The approach taken by BA (and other airlines/businesses) is probably overkill. However if the worst were to happen again, who can blame the airline for not taking every possible mitigating measure?

Fín.

GCab

Agree 100% with this. It's all about balance and responsibility.

GCab

Probably not, unless, you know, I was disappointed in them or something .

But would I demand the entire plane be restricted by it, especially after I'd tubed/Ubered my way to the airport with said child and innumerable crumbs/random everyday exposure en route ? Almost certainly not.

As said above, it's about balance. Skip the packet of nuts with drink, fine. But as a result of this discussion we now (quite validly) have aviation professionals asking whether someone can walk onto a plane with no prior warning and make sweeping statements that result in large numbers of people (including possibly all vegetarians) going without a meal on a long-haul flight. I say no, as it's scientifically implausible and could have been avoided with some responsibility and communication.

Social accommodation vs. responsibility is a perfectly valid concept, and unconstrained moral panic isn't always the answer.

kipper

Then don't serve it to the kids. Make sure you serve the kids first, keeping their meals isolated from those with pine nuts, and wash your hands in between handling the food with pine nuts and anything for the kids.

Ideally, allow for at least a few seats' worth of a buffer, so the kid doesn't accidentally ingest anything from that meal (for example, the person next to the kid drops a piece of the pesto, the kid touches it, then touches their glass, etc.).

Coming back from PRG last fall, I was on a DL flight and had notified them of my nut allergy in advance. When we arrived, we were asked about it, and I confirmed my nut allergy. Once we boarded, before takeoff, both an FA and the purser confirmed my nut allergy. When the FAs handed out the menus, I noticed that one of the meals included pesto. I asked the FA if it was possible to ensure one of whatever the other meal was available for me, given my allergy. The FA said she would make sure to accommodate me, and her solution was to serve me when serving all of the other special meals. It worked well, as it was a minor inconvenience for her and ensured I could eat on the flight. I really do wish airlines would give the option to pre-order a nut-free meal.