Will I lose access to the CCR?

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Mar 18, 2019, 1:25 pm

#16

jrc999

Join Date: Nov 2013

Programs: KrisFlyer, BA Executive Club

Posts: 128

I’m sure last year, those impacted on flights to Canada (787 RR issue) were offered a significant amount of Avios in compensation- like 70k-90k each.
We were impacting on SJC route but BA did not budge and we ending up flying F on A380 to SFO.

Mar 18, 2019, 3:54 pm

#17

PointsPointsPoints

Original Poster

Join Date: Aug 2016

Location: UK

Programs: BAEC

Posts: 122

Quote:

Originally Posted by Often1

Yes, EC 261/2004 does apply. There is no time limit on downgrade refunds as there is for changes and cancellations.

The only way to answer your question as to amount if to ask how many avios were used in the first place. 38,000 avios would be the appropriate refind on a ticket "costing" approximately 50,000 avios. Simply take the avios for the segment and multiply by 0.75.

So we used 148,000 Avios and a 2-4-1 voucher.

Given that all segments are affected, then from what you are saying I should be due 111,000 Avios back?

Does the 2-4-1 voucher usage effect this amount?

Also how do I go about claiming these Avios?

Last edited by PointsPointsPoints; Mar 18, 2019 at 6:15 pm Reason: mistake

Mar 18, 2019, 4:14 pm

#18

PointsPointsPoints

Original Poster

Join Date: Aug 2016

Location: UK

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Posts: 122

Quote:

Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave

It is general practice - and it's frequently mentioned in Customer Guidelines - that if downgraded you get to keep CCR / First Wing access, and quite often the First baggage allowance, First TPs and First Avios too. That's what happened, on this route, for Air Belgium passengers. I have to say YYZ is certainly having quite some shuffling around at the moment, all things considered. But that said, the prospect of the new CW seats means that this outcome may work out quite well.

For info YouFirst have just emailed with the following:

Quote:

I have checked with our Business Manager and unfortunately if you accept the Club World flights then you would not receive the First benefits of lounge access to the Concorde Room/First Lounges etc.

Do you think it is worth bringing up with them the fact that the Air Belgium passengers are getting this benefit..? Or is there no negotiation with YouFirst?

Mar 18, 2019, 5:11 pm

#19

corporate-wage-slave

Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club

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Quote:

Originally Posted by PointsPointsPoints

Do you think it is worth bringing up with them the fact that the Air Belgium passengers are getting this benefit..? Or is there no negotiation with YouFirst?

Well it's not consistent with the Air Belgium offer. I would leave a bit, being the first person to ask may lead to a premature pseudo-policy. For Air Belgium they said the following for First passengers:

If the customer still wishes to travel in the Business Cabin on a KF operated flight:

Customer will receive the appropriate % refund value –this will be automatically processed once the customer has travelled by Global Refunds (do not Q booking)
The customer will retain their First baggage allowance, Concorde Room access and Avios / Tier Point earning

PointsPointsPoints likes this.

Mar 20, 2019, 3:46 am

#20

PointsPointsPoints

Original Poster

Join Date: Aug 2016

Location: UK

Programs: BAEC

Posts: 122

So a bit o back a forth with YouFirst...

They would not offer any F ground product to the F to CW downgrades.

Also they are refusing to accept that this downgrade would fall under the EC261 regulations, and are only offering the Avios difference between the two classes. (38,000 Avios).

Can anyone confirm whether if we accept the downgrade that we would or wouldn't be due EC261 75% Avios refund?

Mar 20, 2019, 4:05 am

#21

Andriyko

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

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Posts: 7,683

Quote:

Originally Posted by PointsPointsPoints

Also they are refusing to accept that this downgrade would fall under the EC261 regulations, and are only offering the Avios difference between the two classes. (38,000 Avios).

Can anyone confirm whether if we accept the downgrade that we would or wouldn't be due EC261 75% Avios refund?

People will only give you their own interpretation of the Regulation. I, personally, do not think that Reg 261 plays any role here. The original flight was canceled and you were given an option to purchase a new seat on a different flight. Some of the new flights do not have the first class cabin. We have had many discussions about withdrawal of a particular cabin from the route but I don't remember anyone coming back to report that they got compensation for this. One can't be placed into a particular cabin until the time of the flight anyway.

Last edited by Andriyko; Mar 20, 2019 at 4:16 am

Mar 20, 2019, 4:14 am

#22

corporate-wage-slave

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Quote:

Originally Posted by PointsPointsPoints

There are two views to this and if you dig deep into the archive of the EC261 threads a few years back, there was a significant debate on the merits of this. The short version would be that BA have some lines of argument here in its favour, particularly if you regard it as a cancellation, and have won MCOL decisions in this area in the past. However there is a legitimate different view which says a downgrade happens if BA places you in a lower cabin. You can't do anything about this aspect until after travel, after all BA may change the aircraft and reinstate First, but you could pursue this with CEDR thereafter. In which case you need to make it clear that this is an involuntary move and that you will pursue BA for EC261 after flying.

Frankly it may be better coming up with alternative arrangements, such as flying via JFK or on another flight or another date. There are other First flights to Toronto in October.

Mar 20, 2019, 4:26 am

#23

PointsPointsPoints

Original Poster

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Location: UK

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Posts: 122

Thanks for clarification everyone.

Mar 20, 2019, 5:10 am

#24

Im a new user

Join Date: May 2017

Posts: 2,016

Quote:

Originally Posted by PointsPointsPoints

So we used 148,000 Avios and a 2-4-1 voucher.

Given that all segments are affected, then from what you are saying I should be due 111,000 Avios back?

Yes. 111,000 is 75% of 148,000, so that number of Avios should be refunded.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PointsPointsPoints

Does the 2-4-1 voucher usage effect this amount?

BA should also refund 75% of the 2-4-1 voucher. I think that you will have to settle on some Avios or cash equivalent value here as there probably isn't a feasible way to refund partial vouchers. If the voucher reduced the amount of Avios needed for the booking by 148,000, then you could maybe hold the position that the voucher was worth 148,000 Avios and so claim an additional 111,000 Avios in lieu of 75% of a voucher, but it is also possible that the voucher has to be valued differently.

You are not due any refund of "mandatory taxes" but there is maybe some room to declare that some taxes are not mandatory. For example, I think it is unclear if the fuel surcharge is a mandatory tax or not.

Mar 20, 2019, 6:00 am

#25

JAXBA

Join Date: Mar 2009

Location: JAX

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Posts: 3,579

Quote:

Originally Posted by Some person

I think it is unclear if the fuel surcharge is a mandatory tax or not.

The fuel surcharge (YQ/YR) is never ever a tax; it is a carrier imposed charge. It is part of the taxes, fees and charges.

Mar 20, 2019, 8:29 am

#26

Im a new user

Join Date: May 2017

Posts: 2,016

Quote:

Originally Posted by JAXBA

The fuel surcharge (YQ/YR) is never ever a tax; it is a carrier imposed charge. It is part of the taxes, fees and charges.

That is not necessarily the way the European Court of Justice argues. When the court introduced the notion of "mandatory taxes", this raised the question on whether the airline can denote an arbitrary amount of money as "taxes" and so avoid paying back a percentage of that.

Mar 20, 2019, 11:06 am

#27

TravellingSalesman

Join Date: May 2013

Location: YYZ/YTZ/YUL

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Posts: 1,558

Quote:

Originally Posted by Often1

If, however, OP is taking this trip for the F experience, BA may be willing to reroute via another NA gateway in F, connecting to AA for a shortish transborder hop. Give some consideration to BOS or ORD.

YYZ doesn't have any AA non-hub flights, alas. ORD, JFK or PHL would be good choices, CLT a bit of a detour.

Mar 20, 2019, 11:40 am

#28

hearingdouble

Join Date: May 2017

Posts: 305

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andriyko

That isn't what's happened here. This is the same flight -- there has been an aircraft swap, not a cancellation.

Mar 20, 2019, 12:36 pm

#29

Andriyko

Join Date: May 2005

Location: Kyiv, Ukraine

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Posts: 7,683

Quote:

Originally Posted by hearingdouble

That isn't what's happened here. This is the same flight -- there has been an aircraft swap, not a cancellation.

It is a cancelation even if the flight is reinstated in the system under the same flight number but without the first cabin; it is in no way just an aircraft swap if the airline withdraws a particular cabin from the route. No downgrade has happened here anyway - the passenger has not been placed into any cabin as the flight has not taken place yet.