world tails--hated that much?

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Old Mar 17, 19, 3:58 am
  #46  
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Wasn’t a fan of them myself, however there was one exception.....



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Old Mar 17, 19, 4:08 am
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Originally Posted by orbitmic View Post
and LH, QR, and UA which don't... which suggests to me that hypotheses that including the flag on one's tail either 1)2) gets you a bigger share of the domestic market or 2) repels the international market will have a hard time being proven! Chances are that flag/no flag may not be that critical on that particular front and that this is about something else a bit more complex and indirect I guess...
Itís a difficult one to explain really! I was trying to prove BA simply wasnít trying too exclude non british customers. I think people after twenty five ish years of seeing the british flag on the tail in some form, taking it away didnít go down too well.
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Old Mar 17, 19, 4:13 am
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I did like some of the world tail designs. Though I think having on the tail was maybe the wrong approach, maybe it was just a bit too ahead of its time, but it might have been a better fit if they had standardised the tail but incorporated the world design into the body of the aircraft in some way.
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Old Mar 17, 19, 4:16 am
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I am no designer. But had they done some along the lines of the easy jet tartan livery. That might have worked a bit better.
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Old Mar 17, 19, 4:20 am
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I did like some of them, but can understand that they might have been confusing in certain circumstances. I wish they had kept one or two, but I think the Thatcher disapproval, bearing in mind she made BA, is what did for them.
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Old Mar 17, 19, 4:24 am
  #51  
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Originally Posted by crazyanglaisy View Post
Does anyone have a link to all the utopia designs in one place? I was a spotty teen at the time and didn't really have a grasp on this phase of BA's history. From the OP's photo, I think they look excellent, especially the calligraphy one.
Not all of them are shown, but however sad, Wikipedia might be your best place to start... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...thnic_liveries

PS: some of them are rather spotty too in honour of teenage skin worries!
PPS: having had a look refreshed my memory on some I had completely forgotten, and again, I really quite like both the concept and the delivery in many cases
PPPS: Wikipedia refers to the Chatham house as the concorde one whilst showing an image of a later painted 744. tss tss...
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Old Mar 17, 19, 4:58 am
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Originally Posted by Swanhunter View Post
Yes. It also spoke of being British and both open to and engaged with the world. How things have changed, too.
That is how I saw it too. It speaks very much of its era, both for BA and more widely for the UK, a period when BA was confident enough of who it was and its origins without feeling the need it to ram it down your throat, a BA that was forward and outward-looking, dared to be different and innovate, as was Britain as a whole ("Cool Britannia", YBAs, Foster and Rogers rather than Prince Charles for architecture, etc ...). While there was as much to throw away as there was to keep (and you could say the same with the BA tails), it was full of dynamism, energy and optimism. What a contrast to the current era, both for BA and for Britain.
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Old Mar 17, 19, 5:22 am
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Originally Posted by NickB View Post
That is how I saw it too. It speaks very much of its era, both for BA and more widely for the UK, a period when BA was confident enough of who it was and its origins without feeling the need it to ram it down your throat, a BA that was forward and outward-looking, dared to be different and innovate, as was Britain as a whole ("Cool Britannia", YBAs, Foster and Rogers rather than Prince Charles for architecture, etc ...). While there was as much to throw away as there was to keep (and you could say the same with the BA tails), it was full of dynamism, energy and optimism. What a contrast to the current era, both for BA and for Britain.
This was also the time BA forgot who they were and slowly lost focus and money. Remember investing in France (TAT) and Germany (Deutsche BA) never turned a profit once. It was all about neglecting the core business while the globalsists built an Empire, which was ironic given the above. You have to market to the mass market in a truly competitive environment and Utopia was so utterly middle class bonkers and niche, that the art from Japan, was unrecognisable as Japanese. So it fails to achieve recognising the nation at all. Anyone remember the American tail? The one reflecting BAís most important market? Nope, me neither.
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Old Mar 17, 19, 5:40 am
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Originally Posted by skipness1E View Post
This was also the time BA forgot who they were and slowly lost focus and money. Remember investing in France (TAT) and Germany (Deutsche BA) never turned a profit once. It was all about neglecting the core business while the globalsists built an Empire, which was ironic given the above.
Acquisition in other European Member States goes back to a little earlier, viz early 90s, which corresponds to the liberalisation of the EU internal market in aviation (the so-called "third package", that fully liberalised EU air transport was adopted in 1992) although it did continue more or less throughout the decade.
To be fair, BA was in the same boat as a number of major European airlines at the time. The EU internal market in aviation had just been liberated and nobody quite knew what to expect and many airlines thought that investing in airlines in other Member States was the way forward. LH and SAS took participation in BMI, KLM acquired Air UK, Air France acquired Cityjet, not to mention the disastrous acquisition policy followed by Swissair a little later.

I do not think that the European acquisitions were a sign of BA "losing its way" and "neglecting the core business" but rather one of dipping your toe in the water in the presence of an uncertain future.
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Old Mar 17, 19, 5:48 am
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Originally Posted by skipness1E View Post

This was also the time BA forgot who they were and slowly lost focus and money. Remember investing in France (TAT) and Germany (Deutsche BA) never turned a profit once. It was all about neglecting the core business while the globalsists built an Empire, which was ironic given the above. You have to market to the mass market in a truly competitive environment and Utopia was so utterly middle class bonkers and niche, that the art from Japan, was unrecognisable as Japanese. So it fails to achieve recognising the nation at all. Anyone remember the American tail? The one reflecting BAís most important market? Nope, me neither.
Waves in the City - it was one of my favourites, although I couldn't say with any conviction it was very American. That said, apart from images of a cartoon mouse and a Starbucks logo, I couldn't tell you what is.
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Old Mar 17, 19, 6:04 am
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Originally Posted by NickB View Post
I do not think that the European acquisitions were a sign of BA "losing its way" and "neglecting the core business" but rather one of dipping your toe in the water in the presence of an uncertain future.
It is true that loses within the Air Libertť and Deutsche BA companies brought down the overall profits of the parent company, but we will remember BA reported operational profits (before taxation) of £585M in 1995-96, £640M in 1996-97, £580M in 1997-98, £225M in 1998-99, £5M in 1999-00, and £150M in 2000-01.

I also don't accept the argument that BA neglected the core business during this period. It was investing heavily in the mainline business (with new Airbus and Boeing orders, new short and long haul products, spent £14M to refurbish Concorde cabins, online booking systems, lounges etc), and acquired CityFlyer Express (now BA Cityflyer)

Sources:
http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_...ualBA/ra97.pdf
http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_...ualBA/ra00.pdf
http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_...ualBA/ra01.pdf
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Old Mar 17, 19, 6:05 am
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Originally Posted by NickB View Post
Acquisition in other European Member States goes back to a little earlier, viz early 90s, which corresponds to the liberalisation of the EU internal market in aviation (the so-called "third package", that fully liberalised EU air transport was adopted in 1992) although it did continue more or less throughout the decade.
To be fair, BA was in the same boat as a number of major European airlines at the time. The EU internal market in aviation had just been liberated and nobody quite knew what to expect and many airlines thought that investing in airlines in other Member States was the way forward. LH and SAS took participation in BMI, KLM acquired Air UK, Air France acquired Cityjet, not to mention the disastrous acquisition policy followed by Swissair a little later.

I do not think that the European acquisitions were a sign of BA "losing its way" and "neglecting the core business" but rather one of dipping your toe in the water in the presence of an uncertain future.
Indeed. And for what it's worth, when a lot of people complain about what BA "has become" as opposed to "what it was", or to what they still like about BA, the reference point are service innovations when the OP considers that BA "lost its ways". It is the time when BA first applied for the TATL joint venture, the time of linking FFPs with AA and the launch of OW, investment on own maintenance, the new Club World with full flat beds (May 1999), the purchase of CityFlyer, the move to an all Airbus shorthaul fleet, etc.

By contrast, things like the purchase of TAT dates back to 1992 in the midst of the Landor livery period, and does not make the Landor livery any less nice. In fact, I fully agree with NickB that it was an ambitious yet measured way of trying to explore the new opportunities afforded by the single market and regulatory changes and BA was actually absolutely right to try to see if it could make it work. Airlines like AF were a lot more timid about it and I don't think that was a positive sign at all. BA tried, it perhaps did not work s well as they would have ideally hoped, and they then rethought their strategy, just as they did with the possibility of creating a low cost arm.
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Last edited by orbitmic; Mar 17, 19 at 11:39 am
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Old Mar 17, 19, 10:29 am
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I loved them too!

In my eyes showed Britain as being outward looking and welcoming
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Old Mar 17, 19, 10:48 am
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Originally Posted by dajdavies View Post
I loved them too!

In my eyes showed Britain as being outward looking and welcoming
I agree, and I think they helped pitch BA as a forward thinking airline. Flat beds in business class, premium economy (though the double tier trays for meal service didnít last), and investment in lounges on a large scale, a cohesiveness to the whole offer and a confident, professional personality were all part of this era, along with Go!. I worked for BA at the time, and it was a great place to work. Weíd just moved to Waterside, casting aside the civil service feel of the Comet and Speedbird house building. Even my business cards had a series of world images on the reverse

So IMO the direction was absolutely right. And being first comes with risk; but, everyone eventually followed flat beds in J. Premium economy stuck, even though itís still not ubiquitous. I still like the world images tailfins, and think that the Chatham Dockyard one is one of the weaker ones; it hasnít aged that well and doesnít have the gravitas of the Landor livery, or the confidence shown by having the whole range. The biggest failure of the period, looking back, was the failure to make a go of Go! But thatís the problem with being first sometimes... BA had identified (correctly) the threat from the low cost carriers, and set up Go! But then failed to run it effectively. 10 years (rounding cavalierly...) later Qantas did the same with Jetstar, and seem to have successfully run it alongside, but separate from, itís mainline operation.
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Old Mar 18, 19, 8:42 am
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Originally Posted by windowontheAside View Post
I loved them. I actually liked most of the designs and I adored the concept.

To me, it was creative and innovative. No-one had ever done something like this and it reinforced my perception of BA's strong and confident brand.
Agreed.

But I can't help thinking that it was just too much too quickly after Landor.

Would it have worked out better if it had started with fewer designs?
Say had it been started with;
Chatham Dockyard, Rose, Tartan, (a Welsh and Irish one) first? (this was the time of devolution, at the time there was still a reasonable domestic network and Logan was T/A BA too.)
Then additional ones could have been added for DBA in Germany and Comair.
And finally other world tails added to mark events in other countries as required
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