B737 Max : CAA bans from UK airspace; Comair aircraft grounded
Mar 12, 2019, 5:46 am
#76
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 610
The 737 MAX 8 is the latest iteration of the original 737. The 737-800 was part of the previous iteration. It goes:
737 Original (100, 200)
737 Classic (300, 400, 500)
737 Next Generation (600, 700, 800, 900)
737 MAX (7, 8, 9, 10)
The increasing counts are not newer versions within a generation, but different sizes within the same generation.
The major difference from the Next Generation to the MAX is a completely new engine. There are also some aerodynamic tweaks and other bits and pieces, including a piece of software designed to make it handle like the previous Next Generation aircraft. It's this that the focus is on in this accident.
737 Original (100, 200)
737 Classic (300, 400, 500)
737 Next Generation (600, 700, 800, 900)
737 MAX (7, 8, 9, 10)
The increasing counts are not newer versions within a generation, but different sizes within the same generation.
The major difference from the Next Generation to the MAX is a completely new engine. There are also some aerodynamic tweaks and other bits and pieces, including a piece of software designed to make it handle like the previous Next Generation aircraft. It's this that the focus is on in this accident.
Thank you!
Mar 12, 2019, 5:54 am
#77
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: UK
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 2,422
For those that have not yet seen it, Boeing has released a statement on their planned MCAS updates: https://boeing.mediaroom.com/news-re...ts?item=130402
...
For the past several months and in the aftermath of Lion Air Flight 610, Boeing has been developing a flight control software enhancement for the 737 MAX, designed to make an already safe aircraft even safer. This includes updates to the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) flight control law, pilot displays, operation manuals and crew training. The enhanced flight control law incorporates angle of attack (AOA) inputs, limits stabilizer trim commands in response to an erroneous angle of attack reading, and provides a limit to the stabilizer command in order to retain elevator authority.
Boeing has been working closely with the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) on development, planning and certification of the software enhancement, and it will be deployed across the 737 MAX fleet in the coming weeks. The update also incorporates feedback received from our customers.
The FAA says it anticipates mandating this software enhancement with an Airworthiness Directive (AD) no later than April. We have worked with the FAA in development of this software enhancement.
...
For the past several months and in the aftermath of Lion Air Flight 610, Boeing has been developing a flight control software enhancement for the 737 MAX, designed to make an already safe aircraft even safer. This includes updates to the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System (MCAS) flight control law, pilot displays, operation manuals and crew training. The enhanced flight control law incorporates angle of attack (AOA) inputs, limits stabilizer trim commands in response to an erroneous angle of attack reading, and provides a limit to the stabilizer command in order to retain elevator authority.
Boeing has been working closely with the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) on development, planning and certification of the software enhancement, and it will be deployed across the 737 MAX fleet in the coming weeks. The update also incorporates feedback received from our customers.
The FAA says it anticipates mandating this software enhancement with an Airworthiness Directive (AD) no later than April. We have worked with the FAA in development of this software enhancement.
...
Mar 12, 2019, 5:59 am
#78
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The disturbing part of this from the pprune thread is that with runaway trim during takeoff, both pilots need to pull back with considerable force (60kg I think) AND find and follow a checklist AND flick a switch, while heading groundwards fast. it seems a difficult situation to manage to put it mildly.
If this crash turns out to be similar to Lionair (which itself hasn't been proved to be MCAS yet) then it's a serious design defect. I imagine the FDR and CVR will be looked at very expeditiously and we'll be told soon. Personally I'd be very wary of getting onto a 737 max until this has been done.
If this crash turns out to be similar to Lionair (which itself hasn't been proved to be MCAS yet) then it's a serious design defect. I imagine the FDR and CVR will be looked at very expeditiously and we'll be told soon. Personally I'd be very wary of getting onto a 737 max until this has been done.
It would be especially hard when one of the two pilots is extremely inexperienced.
Mar 12, 2019, 7:31 am
#81
Join Date: May 2016
Location: London
Programs: BA Gold, Accor Gold
Posts: 1,427
CAA just tweeted it and then suddenly deleted it.
Edit, it's back
https://www.caa.co.uk/News/Boeing-737-MAX-Aircraft/
Edit, it's back
https://www.caa.co.uk/News/Boeing-737-MAX-Aircraft/
Mar 12, 2019, 7:32 am
#82
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 173
Now back up again:
"The UK Civil Aviation Authority has been closely monitoring the situation, however, as we do not currently have sufficient information from the flight data recorder we have, as a precautionary measure, issued instructions to stop any commercial passenger flights from any operator arriving, departing or overflying UK airspace.
"The UK Civil Aviation Authority's safety directive will be in place until further notice.
"We remain in close contact with the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) and industry regulators globally."
-ENDS-
Notes to editors
There are currently five 737 MAX aircraft registered and operational in the United Kingdom. A sixth is planned to commence operations later this week.
The US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is responsible for certifying all Boeing 737 MAX models and it is the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) that validates this certification across the EU, including the UK.
- 12 March, 2019
"The UK Civil Aviation Authority has been closely monitoring the situation, however, as we do not currently have sufficient information from the flight data recorder we have, as a precautionary measure, issued instructions to stop any commercial passenger flights from any operator arriving, departing or overflying UK airspace.
"The UK Civil Aviation Authority's safety directive will be in place until further notice.
"We remain in close contact with the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) and industry regulators globally."
-ENDS-
Notes to editors
There are currently five 737 MAX aircraft registered and operational in the United Kingdom. A sixth is planned to commence operations later this week.
The US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is responsible for certifying all Boeing 737 MAX models and it is the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) that validates this certification across the EU, including the UK.
Mar 12, 2019, 7:33 am
#83
Join Date: Aug 2018
Posts: 173
Now back up again:
"The UK Civil Aviation Authority has been closely monitoring the situation, however, as we do not currently have sufficient information from the flight data recorder we have, as a precautionary measure, issued instructions to stop any commercial passenger flights from any operator arriving, departing or overflying UK airspace.
"The UK Civil Aviation Authority's safety directive will be in place until further notice.
"We remain in close contact with the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) and industry regulators globally."
-ENDS-
Notes to editors
There are currently five 737 MAX aircraft registered and operational in the United Kingdom. A sixth is planned to commence operations later this week.
The US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is responsible for certifying all Boeing 737 MAX models and it is the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) that validates this certification across the EU, including the UK.
- 12 March, 2019
"The UK Civil Aviation Authority has been closely monitoring the situation, however, as we do not currently have sufficient information from the flight data recorder we have, as a precautionary measure, issued instructions to stop any commercial passenger flights from any operator arriving, departing or overflying UK airspace.
"The UK Civil Aviation Authority's safety directive will be in place until further notice.
"We remain in close contact with the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) and industry regulators globally."
-ENDS-
Notes to editors
There are currently five 737 MAX aircraft registered and operational in the United Kingdom. A sixth is planned to commence operations later this week.
The US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) is responsible for certifying all Boeing 737 MAX models and it is the European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) that validates this certification across the EU, including the UK.
Mar 12, 2019, 7:34 am
#84
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 5,596
CAA bans B737/800 Max from arriving, departing or overflying UK airspace.
UK CAA just banned B737/8 max from arriving, departing or overflying UK airspace. As this will impact Norwegian and TUI this will have an impact on BA with booked passengers seeking re accommodation on other flights with different aircraft types.
The ban will also affect Ryanair.
The ban will also affect Ryanair.
Mar 12, 2019, 7:45 am
#86
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Programs: IC Hotels Spire, BA Gold
Posts: 8,667
What happens to any of the aircraft type currently en-route to UK destinations? Are they permitted to continue and land or do they have to divert to a country that has not currently banned the type? Or if an aircraft has pushed back and taxiing but not yet taken off from a UK airport?
Mar 12, 2019, 7:50 am
#88
Join Date: Nov 2006
Programs: Seniors Bus Pass
Posts: 5,528
What happens to any of the aircraft type currently en-route to UK destinations? Are they permitted to continue and land or do they have to divert to a country that has not currently banned the type? Or if an aircraft has pushed back and taxiing but not yet taken off from a UK airport?
The first part would be potentially more tricky. Depends where they are. If not in UK airspace then they can't come in and divert to wherever their ops tell them. If in UK airspace they may not have a divert option outside the UK so will land and be stuck where they are.
As the only commonality is problems about 5 mins after take off, that might not be the problem the CAA see!
Mar 12, 2019, 7:53 am
#90
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: UK
Programs: IC Hotels Spire, BA Gold
Posts: 8,667
So a large number of countries have now banned the aircraft from their airspace. But not yet the US - it makes the US FAA look kind of in cahoots with Boeing? Hopefully not a repeat of the now infamous "gentleman's agreement" that took place between the FAA and McDonnell Douglas in the early 70s over a known catastrophic failure mode in the DC10 design that culminated in the THY 1974 crash at Paris (costing circa 350 lives). Only then decisive action was finally taken.
https://www.nytimes.com/1974/12/27/a...ys-agency.html
https://www.nytimes.com/1974/12/27/a...ys-agency.html