Go Back  FlyerTalk Forums > Miles&Points > Airlines and Mileage Programs > British Airways | Executive Club
Reload this Page >

B737 Max : CAA bans from UK airspace; Comair aircraft grounded

B737 Max : CAA bans from UK airspace; Comair aircraft grounded

Reply

Old Mar 12, 19, 8:04 pm
  #166  
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Programs: BAEC GGL/CR; Hilton Diamond
Posts: 2,214
Ethiopian doesn't have an unblemished reputation. But that's not the point, an airliner should be flyable by the worst case qualified pilot. If this is MCAS on both accidents - not established yet - Then evidently that bar was not reached.

Plenty of commentators lamenting excess of automation, but this really isn't a case of that. It appears to be an ill-thought through software fix to a 60 year old design (they grafted on more efficient engines, thereby radically changing the CoG, and the system cuts in only during manual flight. Autopilot would be OK.
bisonrav is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 4:52 am
  #167  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: London
Programs: Hilton IHG LH BA TK
Posts: 11,573
Originally Posted by bisonrav View Post
Ethiopian doesn't have an unblemished reputation.
So few airlines do. But for Ethiopian in recent times i remember only Beirut and a hijacking.
IAN-UK is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 5:38 am
  #168  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,514
Originally Posted by msm2000uk View Post
The US FAA surely cant ignore the closures.

Boeing have announced a Software Update for the 737 Max series; I lack any in depth understanding to comment on it!

I wonder whether Norwegian will look to wet lease A320/321s from QR.

M
Seems that they can and are.

A spokesman for Boeing confirmed the conversation and said [Boeing CEO] Muilenburg "made clear to the president that the MAX aircraft is safe."
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/12/boeing-ceo-trump-737-max-safe-1218439

Quite disturbing really.
msm2000uk likes this.
1010101 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 6:26 am
  #169  
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Hong Kong
Programs: CX (elite) and a few others (non-elite)
Posts: 676
Originally Posted by BOH View Post
So a large number of countries have now banned the aircraft from their airspace. But not yet the US - it makes the US FAA look kind of in cahoots with Boeing?
You're surely not suggesting that a government led by Donald Trump would let any partisan, government-in-cahoots-with-Boeing, we-can't-possibly-be-at-fault-we're-American sort of shenanigans occur?

Oh, hang on...

Umm....
IanFromHKG is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 7:53 am
  #170  
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Programs: BAEC GGL/CR; Hilton Diamond
Posts: 2,214
That's not how the FAA works. They're proceeding by the book, other countries have the luxury of not being the certifying authority.
bisonrav is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 8:30 am
  #171  
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Programs: American Life Time 2 Million Mile Platinum
Posts: 45
Software update is only part of the issue.

737Max has left and right Angle of attack sensors (I have read that A320 has three AOA sensors). If one gives and erroneous reading, the MCAS defaults to it where with A320, with one erroneous reading it checks with the other two and goes with the two that agree. By the way two sensors is inherently STUPID! How do you know which one is giving the "erroneous" reading? This is clearly a design flaw leading to a single point failure mode with MCAS software.

To completely solve the issue (erroneous AOA input), Boeing needs to go to three AOA sensors and modify the software to demand elimination of the outlier seniors input.
mnhusker is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 8:34 am
  #172  
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Windsor
Programs: BAEC Gold
Posts: 832
Originally Posted by mnhusker View Post
Software update is only part of the issue.

737Max has left and right Angle of attack sensors (I have read that A320 has three AOA sensors). If one gives and erroneous reading, the MCAS defaults to it where with A320, with one erroneous reading it checks with the other two and goes with the two that agree. By the way two sensors is inherently STUPID! How do you know which one is giving the "erroneous" reading? This is clearly a design flaw leading to a single point failure mode with MCAS software.

To completely solve the issue (erroneous AOA input), Boeing needs to go to three AOA sensors and modify the software to demand elimination of the outlier seniors input.
Or, in the circumstance where one of the two sets of data is in disagreement, go into "failure mode" (in the same way an Airbus would if two of the three sets of data is in disagreement).
JimEddie is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 8:42 am
  #173  
FlyerTalk Evangelist
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London
Programs: Mucci. Nothing else matters.
Posts: 34,764
Originally Posted by mnhusker View Post
737Max has left and right Angle of attack sensors (I have read that A320 has three AOA sensors). If one gives and erroneous reading, the MCAS defaults to it where with A320, with one erroneous reading it checks with the other two and goes with the two that agree. By the way two sensors is inherently STUPID! How do you know which one is giving the "erroneous" reading? This is clearly a design flaw leading to a single point failure mode with MCAS software.

To completely solve the issue (erroneous AOA input), Boeing needs to go to three AOA sensors and modify the software to demand elimination of the outlier seniors input.
Would this actually "completely solve" the problem? ISTR that the underlying chain of events at Perpignan was that two out of the three AoA sensors were identically wrong, so the correct reading was out-voted: Crash: Air New Zealand A320 near Perpignan on Nov 27th 2008, impacted Mediterranean Sea
Globaliser is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 8:56 am
  #174  
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Programs: Battleaxe Alliance
Posts: 20,817
What makes me uncomfortable is the issue that made MCAS necessary in the first place (i.e. CofG issue). That element makes me uncomfortable regardless of the outcome of this investigation.
David_Doyle, EuropeanPete and Stez like this.
LTN Phobia is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 9:34 am
  #175  
2019 FlyerTalk Awards
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Location: London
Programs: BAEC Silver
Posts: 399
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t the reason MCAS is there in the first place is to get the Max to handle the same as the previous generation 737. In doing this, they can achieve a single type rating for pilots. Whilst it may inconvenience the airlines, and impact sales, wouldn’t the safest outcome be to ditch the MCAS and have two type ratings?
TedToToe is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 9:56 am
  #176  
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 5,514
Originally Posted by TedToToe View Post
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn’t the reason MCAS is there in the first place is to get the Max to handle the same as the previous generation 737. In doing this, they can achieve a single type rating for pilots. Whilst it may inconvenience the airlines, and impact sales, wouldn’t the safest outcome be to ditch the MCAS and have two type ratings?
That would signal the end of the 737 MAX and probably the 737 program. No airline would buy it.


I'm also not sure if the MCAS software is there just to make it handle like the old one, or if it's actually unstable without it.
1010101 is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 9:59 am
  #177  
2019 FlyerTalk Awards
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: LHR, LGW
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 1,515
Correct me if I’m wrong but as I understand it MCAS is there to correct the aircraft from titling and therefore possibly stalling due to the engines. The engines are much bigger and placed further forward than previous design (smaller engines) and at full thrust the nose can drop so the MCAS steps in to prevent this through the stabilisers also(?).

Separately, as with most large corporate the constant obsession with saving costs, driving profit and shareholder value with sometimes the disregard of customer experience, as we’ve seen with BA in recent years, doesn’t always bode well in the end.
rockflyertalk is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 10:14 am
  #178  
2019 FlyerTalk Awards
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: London Stratford, E7
Programs: BAEC Gold! Thanks to FT
Posts: 1,788
So now Canada has grounded the 737 max.. will this force the hand of the FAA?
KeaneJohn is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 11:35 am
  #179  
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: UK
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 2,000
Wasn't there some talk previously of making the lading gear longer which would raise the aircraft enough to move the engines back a bit, thus resolving the CoG problem?
Steve_ZA is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 13, 19, 12:45 pm
  #180  
2019 FlyerTalk Awards
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: LHR, LGW
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 1,515
It seems the US have finally caught up...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47562727

BBC reporting that Trump has announced that the FAA are grounding the 73M...

US President Donald Trump has said the US Federal Aviation Administration will ground the Boeing 737 Max 8 - the aircraft in Sunday's crash in Ethiopia.

The FAA had previously held out while many countries banned the Max 8 from flying over their airspace.

All 157 people on board the Ethiopian Airlines flight were killed when it crashed just minutes after take-off.

It was the second fatal Max 8 disaster in six months, after one crashed over Indonesia in October, killing 189.
rockflyertalk is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread