Refused Downgrade - What are my rights?
Feb 15, 2019, 10:20 am
#31
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and I would personally say that it typically is a decent level of compensation.
Last edited by orbitmic; Feb 16, 2019 at 2:11 am
Feb 15, 2019, 7:00 pm
#32
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I find it a bit surprising that there's so little customer protection here - a delay which (depending on the facts) may be a far small nuisance than having to fly 12h in Y instead of F, gives you decent compensation. I can't help but think that legislators at the time of drafting these provisions had thought that 75% should be decent compensation and failed to foresee how airlines will be trying to push the envelope when calculating the 75% figure (I've seen at least one report in another thread where someone bought a relatively cheap J fare in a promo months in advance and the airline tried to insist on using a fully-flexible walk-up Y fare for the purposes of the 75% calculation).
EC 261/2004 downgrade refunds are based on a percentage of the fare paid. If you pay $2,000 (base segment fare) for an F ticket and are downgraded, the refund is $1,500. It does not matter what the value of the new ticket is on the date of the downgrade.
Many people would be quite thrilled with that outcome. Others would prefer to wait for the next flight with F availability. While they are not entitled to it, most carriers will accommodate. But, at that point you have not been downgraded so no refund. You also have not been delayed by the carrier, you have been delayed by your own choice. So, no delay compensation.
No need to make this more complicated than it is. Because it is not. Whatever the merits of the Regulation, it is simple in this case.
Feb 15, 2019, 8:57 pm
#33
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You have this completely wrong.
EC 261/2004 downgrade refunds are based on a percentage of the fare paid. If you pay $2,000 (base segment fare) for an F ticket and are downgraded, the refund is $1,500. It does not matter what the value of the new ticket is on the date of the downgrade.
Many people would be quite thrilled with that outcome. Others would prefer to wait for the next flight with F availability. While they are not entitled to it, most carriers will accommodate. But, at that point you have not been downgraded so no refund. You also have not been delayed by the carrier, you have been delayed by your own choice. So, no delay compensation.
No need to make this more complicated than it is. Because it is not. Whatever the merits of the Regulation, it is simple in this case.
EC 261/2004 downgrade refunds are based on a percentage of the fare paid. If you pay $2,000 (base segment fare) for an F ticket and are downgraded, the refund is $1,500. It does not matter what the value of the new ticket is on the date of the downgrade.
Many people would be quite thrilled with that outcome. Others would prefer to wait for the next flight with F availability. While they are not entitled to it, most carriers will accommodate. But, at that point you have not been downgraded so no refund. You also have not been delayed by the carrier, you have been delayed by your own choice. So, no delay compensation.
No need to make this more complicated than it is. Because it is not. Whatever the merits of the Regulation, it is simple in this case.
Feb 15, 2019, 9:45 pm
#34
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While I know this is fantasyland currently, at an absolute minimum, I think the minimum compensation should be the maximum of 75% of the fare, the cost of an AUP, or the difference in fare between the ticket purchased and the cheapest ticket available on the date of purchase. I also think that the calculation should then be made for all passengers and each downgraded passenger should receive the maximum of all potential downgraded passengers. This would prevent an airline from selling a last minute full fare ticket and then downgrading the cheapest fare.
Feb 16, 2019, 1:27 am
#35
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While I know this is fantasyland currently, at an absolute minimum, I think the minimum compensation should be the maximum of 75% of the fare, the cost of an AUP, or the difference in fare between the ticket purchased and the cheapest ticket available on the date of purchase. I also think that the calculation should then be made for all passengers and each downgraded passenger should receive the maximum of all potential downgraded passengers. This would prevent an airline from selling a last minute full fare ticket and then downgrading the cheapest fare.
Feb 16, 2019, 6:47 am
#36
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Can I just ask this: is BA contractually entitled to forcibly downgrade a customer? I appreciate the EU Regulation providing for compensation appears to be predicated on the assumption that under the Regulation compensation is not payable if the customer 'refuses' a downgrade (which makes sense as they are not in fact downgraded). But what about contractual rules here? Is BA contractually entitled to forcibly downgrade a customer and, quite apart from statute, do ordinary breach of contract principles not apply? Would a taxi at the end of an overnight flight really be too remote? What about an extra day's car parking?
IE I purchase widget A (a business class flight on BA) with serial number xyz (flight number on a particular date). When I go to collect my widget I am told no but you can have widget B (an economy class flight). I say 'no actually I ordered widget A so I will have widget A please. If I had wanted widget B I would have purchased it'. The customer didn't end up with widget A with serial number xyz, but ended up with something different because the airline was unable to provide that which the customer had purchased. I appreciate this might not be an EU compensation case but where does the OP stand contractually?
IE I purchase widget A (a business class flight on BA) with serial number xyz (flight number on a particular date). When I go to collect my widget I am told no but you can have widget B (an economy class flight). I say 'no actually I ordered widget A so I will have widget A please. If I had wanted widget B I would have purchased it'. The customer didn't end up with widget A with serial number xyz, but ended up with something different because the airline was unable to provide that which the customer had purchased. I appreciate this might not be an EU compensation case but where does the OP stand contractually?
Feb 16, 2019, 7:01 am
#37
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Can I just ask this: is BA contractually entitled to forcibly downgrade a customer? I appreciate the EU Regulation providing for compensation appears to be predicated on the assumption that under the Regulation compensation is not payable if the customer 'refuses' a downgrade (which makes sense as they are not in fact downgraded). But what about contractual rules here? Is BA contractually entitled to forcibly downgrade a customer and, quite apart from statute, do ordinary breach of contract principles not apply? Would a taxi at the end of an overnight flight really be too remote? What about an extra day's car parking?
Last edited by percysmith; Feb 16, 2019 at 7:51 am
Feb 16, 2019, 7:18 am
#38
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3c7) We will accept each flight coupon in your ticket for transportation in the class of service on the date and flight for which you have a reservation
Thanks to any of our friendly lawyers in advance!
Feb 16, 2019, 7:32 am
#39
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Quite frankly, I suspect the ‘breach of contract’ question is a complete distraction: the breach of contract occurs if you are forcibly downgraded in which you get the ec261 amount anyway which would likely be an outstanding outcome in most case if such a breach of contract was not subject to a fixed regulatory payment.
if you refuse the downgrade and as the op did, ask to be rerouted on a given flight in original travel class, then in all likelihood, you’ve agreed your own remedy.
the only case when this might be relevant is if you said that despite ec261 not specifically allowing that, the breach of contract should be sufficient for the passenger to consider the contract null and void and thus asking for cancellation and reimbursement. Given you’d then need to buy your own way at the last minute, this would be unlikely to work in the passenger’s interest in most cases.
if you refuse the downgrade and as the op did, ask to be rerouted on a given flight in original travel class, then in all likelihood, you’ve agreed your own remedy.
the only case when this might be relevant is if you said that despite ec261 not specifically allowing that, the breach of contract should be sufficient for the passenger to consider the contract null and void and thus asking for cancellation and reimbursement. Given you’d then need to buy your own way at the last minute, this would be unlikely to work in the passenger’s interest in most cases.
Feb 16, 2019, 7:38 am
#40
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I'm thinking it's just compensation:
"10.2.4 If we are unable to provide confirmed space, we shall provide compensation to those Passengers who are denied boarding or who are involuntarily downgraded to the class below in accordance with applicable law." https://www.cathaypacific.com/conten...en.pdf#page=24
Yes I know it's another airline's CoC - and I'm a bit surprised BA's doesn't carry an equivalent term https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb...ns-of-carriage - but even in the absence in BA's CoC saying one way or another, what do you expect BA or a Small Claims Court to do?
"10.2.4 If we are unable to provide confirmed space, we shall provide compensation to those Passengers who are denied boarding or who are involuntarily downgraded to the class below in accordance with applicable law." https://www.cathaypacific.com/conten...en.pdf#page=24
Yes I know it's another airline's CoC - and I'm a bit surprised BA's doesn't carry an equivalent term https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb...ns-of-carriage - but even in the absence in BA's CoC saying one way or another, what do you expect BA or a Small Claims Court to do?
Feb 16, 2019, 7:42 am
#41
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I am a lawyer and I don't know the answer - hence why I am asking. Aviation is a law unto itself (literally!) but I certainly feel:
1. As a consumer, if I purchase a 'business class' ticket then if in fact the airline can force me to fly in economy (or lose my ticket with no compensation) then I would expect that term to have a big red hand next to it at the time of purchase.
2. Can BA simply say 'sorry Mr Morgan I know you booked club world but actually we don't guarantee it and here's your boarding pass for World Traveller seat 30E. Take it or leave it but if you leave it you will be treated as a no show and will lose your ticket'?
3. If that is right then it must also be right that I could say 'well I'll leave it thanks but I'll buy a new Club World ticket tomorrow'. 'Ok that'll be $4,000'. Next day "sorry Mr Morgan but we don't guarantee you'll travel in Club. Here's a boarding pass for World Traveller seat 30E. Take it or...."
Is that actually the law?
1. As a consumer, if I purchase a 'business class' ticket then if in fact the airline can force me to fly in economy (or lose my ticket with no compensation) then I would expect that term to have a big red hand next to it at the time of purchase.
2. Can BA simply say 'sorry Mr Morgan I know you booked club world but actually we don't guarantee it and here's your boarding pass for World Traveller seat 30E. Take it or leave it but if you leave it you will be treated as a no show and will lose your ticket'?
3. If that is right then it must also be right that I could say 'well I'll leave it thanks but I'll buy a new Club World ticket tomorrow'. 'Ok that'll be $4,000'. Next day "sorry Mr Morgan but we don't guarantee you'll travel in Club. Here's a boarding pass for World Traveller seat 30E. Take it or...."
Is that actually the law?
Feb 16, 2019, 7:49 am
#42
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Couldn't the downgraded passenger decide not to travel and force a full refund by doing a credit card chargeback? To me, this would be equivalent to ordering an item by mail and either it's never sent to you or the wrong item has been sent and the merchant refuses to correct the situation. Of course the obvious problem is that if one wants/needs to travel (or if the downgrade occurs on the return portion of a RT ticket), one must purchase a more expensive last minute ticket.
Feb 16, 2019, 7:51 am
#43
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Quite frankly, I suspect the ‘breach of contract’ question is a complete distraction: the breach of contract occurs if you are forcibly downgraded in which you get the ec261 amount anyway which would likely be an outstanding outcome in most case if such a breach of contract was not subject to a fixed regulatory payment.
if you refuse the downgrade and as the op did, ask to be rerouted on a given flight in original travel class, then in all likelihood, you’ve agreed your own remedy.
the only case when this might be relevant is if you said that despite ec261 not specifically allowing that, the breach of contract should be sufficient for the passenger to consider the contract null and void and thus asking for cancellation and reimbursement. Given you’d then need to buy your own way at the last minute, this would be unlikely to work in the passenger’s interest in most cases.
if you refuse the downgrade and as the op did, ask to be rerouted on a given flight in original travel class, then in all likelihood, you’ve agreed your own remedy.
the only case when this might be relevant is if you said that despite ec261 not specifically allowing that, the breach of contract should be sufficient for the passenger to consider the contract null and void and thus asking for cancellation and reimbursement. Given you’d then need to buy your own way at the last minute, this would be unlikely to work in the passenger’s interest in most cases.
Isn't 261/2004 complementary to any contractual remedies? Or is it a complete code?
Feb 16, 2019, 7:55 am
#44
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Regards
Feb 16, 2019, 8:22 am
#45
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I am a lawyer and I don't know the answer - hence why I am asking. Aviation is a law unto itself (literally!) but I certainly feel:
1. As a consumer, if I purchase a 'business class' ticket then if in fact the airline can force me to fly in economy (or lose my ticket with no compensation) then I would expect that term to have a big red hand next to it at the time of purchase.
2. Can BA simply say 'sorry Mr Morgan I know you booked club world but actually we don't guarantee it and here's your boarding pass for World Traveller seat 30E. Take it or leave it but if you leave it you will be treated as a no show and will lose your ticket'?
3. If that is right then it must also be right that I could say 'well I'll leave it thanks but I'll buy a new Club World ticket tomorrow'. 'Ok that'll be $4,000'. Next day "sorry Mr Morgan but we don't guarantee you'll travel in Club. Here's a boarding pass for World Traveller seat 30E. Take it or...."
Is that actually the law?
1. As a consumer, if I purchase a 'business class' ticket then if in fact the airline can force me to fly in economy (or lose my ticket with no compensation) then I would expect that term to have a big red hand next to it at the time of purchase.
2. Can BA simply say 'sorry Mr Morgan I know you booked club world but actually we don't guarantee it and here's your boarding pass for World Traveller seat 30E. Take it or leave it but if you leave it you will be treated as a no show and will lose your ticket'?
3. If that is right then it must also be right that I could say 'well I'll leave it thanks but I'll buy a new Club World ticket tomorrow'. 'Ok that'll be $4,000'. Next day "sorry Mr Morgan but we don't guarantee you'll travel in Club. Here's a boarding pass for World Traveller seat 30E. Take it or...."
Is that actually the law?
As i have said before 75% comp does not make up a big enough difference to cover lie flat to WT downgrade regardless of how EC is worded.
Just looking at some direct prices for next week there is far larger than a 75% delta between the prices.