Jan 1, 2019, 2:39 am
Last edit by: corporate-wage-slave
Link to Text of the regulations in PDF format
Downgrades: Mennens case - calculation formula is in this post
787 cancellations due to Trent engine issues - CEDR ruling information from the post in the 2018 thread and onwards.
Downgrades: Mennens case - calculation formula is in this post
787 cancellations due to Trent engine issues - CEDR ruling information from the post in the 2018 thread and onwards.
The 2019 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004
Apr 16, 2019, 11:37 am
#346
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,736
Hi
I was also delayed on this flight as part of a larger chain of delays. My taxi from abz to edi was £381.30!!
I have a question though; as this flight was cancelled when the inbound flight was rerouted is an ec261 claim not valid because it wasn't the abz>lhr flight that was directly impacted by fog?
Chris
I was also delayed on this flight as part of a larger chain of delays. My taxi from abz to edi was £381.30!!
I have a question though; as this flight was cancelled when the inbound flight was rerouted is an ec261 claim not valid because it wasn't the abz>lhr flight that was directly impacted by fog?
Chris
If the flight was cancelled then Right to Care certainly still applies. Right to compensation relates to things under BA's control, and fog at an outstation isn't under BA's control, if I've understood it correctly. The taxi would be under Right to Care. Now usually BA expects people to use public transport, so trains, and therefore set a £50 limit on taxis, however that is not in the Regulation, it's just BA's arbitrary limit. If you are being caught up in this, it is usually worth a telephone call to Customer Relations before formally escalating matters.
Apr 16, 2019, 11:52 am
#347
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 2
Welcome to Flyertalk and welcome to the BA forum Chriszgordon, and I hope we will see you in the main part of the BA board in due course.
If the flight was cancelled then Right to Care certainly still applies. Right to compensation relates to things under BA's control, and fog at an outstation isn't under BA's control, if I've understood it correctly. The taxi would be under Right to Care. Now usually BA expects people to use public transport, so trains, and therefore set a £50 limit on taxis, however that is not in the Regulation, it's just BA's arbitrary limit. If you are being caught up in this, it is usually worth a telephone call to Customer Relations before formally escalating matters.
If the flight was cancelled then Right to Care certainly still applies. Right to compensation relates to things under BA's control, and fog at an outstation isn't under BA's control, if I've understood it correctly. The taxi would be under Right to Care. Now usually BA expects people to use public transport, so trains, and therefore set a £50 limit on taxis, however that is not in the Regulation, it's just BA's arbitrary limit. If you are being caught up in this, it is usually worth a telephone call to Customer Relations before formally escalating matters.
Yes I was caught up in this but in the middle of a longer chain of delays. My taxi from abz to edi turned up as scheduled!!
I suspect my overall claim will be unsuccessful;
Abz>lhr (1/2/19) cancelled due to potential snow in lhr (didn't happen)
Lhr>lis 1/2/19 missed
Abz>lhr (1/2/19) cancelled due to inbound flight redirected to glad die to fog in abz
Lhr>lis (2/2/19) missed
Taxi to edi (ba booked and paid).
Then edi>lhr>lis as schexuled
24 hours late in lis and a missed wedding (not mine!).
Chris
Apr 16, 2019, 1:56 pm
#348
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Surrey
Programs: BA Executive Club Gold
Posts: 176
Thank you, enormously, for this. Though this isn't law, so it is an adjudication based on the law, nevertheless it is truly excellent to get the basis spelled out like this. The key relevance being that Right to Care is neither explicitly ruled in or ruled out in terms of the wording of the Regulations (whereas Article 7 compensation is out of scope). We sometimes hear similar cases where a flight change - advertised well in advance - results in a hotel staying being the only practical solution. Again thank you, it will be useful.
The relevant provisions of Article 5 of Regulation 261 provide that passengers whose flights are cancelled shall be:
a. Offered assistance by the airline in accordance with Article 8 (Re-Routing);
b. Offered assistance by the airline in accordance with Article 9(1)(a) and 9(2) and, when rerouting under Article 8 means that the reasonably expected time of departure is at least the day after that planned for the cancelled flight, the assistance specified in Articles 9(1)(b) and 9(1)(c) (Care).
The airline has cited its terms and conditions which provide for slightly different remedies. The airline’s ‘Remedy 1’ looks like its obligations under Article 8(1)(b); ‘Remedy 2’ looks like its obligations under Article 8(1)(c); and ‘Remedy 3’ looks like its obligations under Article 8(1)(a). They do not repeat the language of the Regulation faithfully, however.
In particular, under Remedy 2 of the airline’s terms and conditions, no provision is made for the cost of care.
Where the airline’s General Conditions of Carriage are less favourable to the passenger than the Regulation, therefore, the passenger’s rights under the Regulation will prevail.
Article 9(1)(b) requires the airline to provide hotel accommodation in cases where a stay of one or more nights becomes necessary, or where a stay additional to that intended by the passenger becomes necessary.
In order to clarify the effect of previous European case law on the application of Regulation 261, the European Commission has published a Commission Notice described as "Interpretative Guidelines on Regulation (EC) No 261/2004" (C(2016) 3502, Brussels, 10th June 2016) ('the Guidelines'). The Guidelines confirm that the intention of the Regulation is to ensure that passengers waiting for re-routing are to be adequately taken care of.
The Guidelines further provide that if care is not offered, even though it should have been, passengers who have had to pay for meals and refreshments, hotel accommodation, transport between the place of accommodation and the airport and/or telecommunication services can obtain reimbursement of the expenses incurred from the air carrier, provided they were ‘necessary, reasonable and appropriate’.
a. Offered assistance by the airline in accordance with Article 8 (Re-Routing);
b. Offered assistance by the airline in accordance with Article 9(1)(a) and 9(2) and, when rerouting under Article 8 means that the reasonably expected time of departure is at least the day after that planned for the cancelled flight, the assistance specified in Articles 9(1)(b) and 9(1)(c) (Care).
The airline has cited its terms and conditions which provide for slightly different remedies. The airline’s ‘Remedy 1’ looks like its obligations under Article 8(1)(b); ‘Remedy 2’ looks like its obligations under Article 8(1)(c); and ‘Remedy 3’ looks like its obligations under Article 8(1)(a). They do not repeat the language of the Regulation faithfully, however.
In particular, under Remedy 2 of the airline’s terms and conditions, no provision is made for the cost of care.
Where the airline’s General Conditions of Carriage are less favourable to the passenger than the Regulation, therefore, the passenger’s rights under the Regulation will prevail.
Article 9(1)(b) requires the airline to provide hotel accommodation in cases where a stay of one or more nights becomes necessary, or where a stay additional to that intended by the passenger becomes necessary.
In order to clarify the effect of previous European case law on the application of Regulation 261, the European Commission has published a Commission Notice described as "Interpretative Guidelines on Regulation (EC) No 261/2004" (C(2016) 3502, Brussels, 10th June 2016) ('the Guidelines'). The Guidelines confirm that the intention of the Regulation is to ensure that passengers waiting for re-routing are to be adequately taken care of.
The Guidelines further provide that if care is not offered, even though it should have been, passengers who have had to pay for meals and refreshments, hotel accommodation, transport between the place of accommodation and the airport and/or telecommunication services can obtain reimbursement of the expenses incurred from the air carrier, provided they were ‘necessary, reasonable and appropriate’.
Apr 18, 2019, 10:32 am
#349
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: LHR
Programs: Accor PLT,Thai Silver, HH Dia, SPG Titanium (LT Gold), Aegean Gold, BA Silver
Posts: 5,116
Just a point of interest. My Daughter was on the BA9 on 9/4 which incurred a near 24 hour delay. Filed a claim on 10/4 and money was in the Bank within a week. Good job BA. She however received an email apologizing for the delay stating that 15K Avios would also be deposited into her account however as of today nothing has been received. Does anyone know how look the transaction usually takes to process?
Apr 18, 2019, 2:45 pm
#350
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,353
I begun travelling today EXT-MAN-BHD with Flybe on the same ticket, due to return tomorrow. While in transit at MAN the flkgfl to BHD was initially delayed by 2.5 hours and then subsequently cancelled. The next available flight BE could offer was at 17:10 (compared to the original 08:25).
Given that I was only travelling for one night, that length of delay renders my trip a waste of time. BE booked me onto a flight at 17:00 back to EXT today which I am happy with.
In these circumstances I believe I am entitled under EC261 to a refund of my ticket plus reasonable meal expenses at MAN. What I'm not clear on is if I'm also entitled to any further compensation in addition to the refund? Just want to make sure I'm claiming for the right thing. flyBE are claiming "operational reasons" for the delay/cancellation - I received an email overnight advising me of the original delay and change of aircraft type so I figure it's not due to a last minute ATC etc issue.
Given that I was only travelling for one night, that length of delay renders my trip a waste of time. BE booked me onto a flight at 17:00 back to EXT today which I am happy with.
In these circumstances I believe I am entitled under EC261 to a refund of my ticket plus reasonable meal expenses at MAN. What I'm not clear on is if I'm also entitled to any further compensation in addition to the refund? Just want to make sure I'm claiming for the right thing. flyBE are claiming "operational reasons" for the delay/cancellation - I received an email overnight advising me of the original delay and change of aircraft type so I figure it's not due to a last minute ATC etc issue.
Apr 19, 2019, 7:26 am
#351
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: HEL
Programs: AY Plat Lumo, SK Gold
Posts: 953
I just had a smooth EC261 case with BA. On Apr 4th there were two of us flying SEZ - LHR - HEL. BA 62 from SEZ to LHR was delayed over two hours because of an engineering issue that occurred when the plane was due to depart from LHR to SEZ the previous evening. As a result we missed our connection. It was the last flight of the day to HEL, so BA rebooked us for the following morning and put us to the Renaissance in Heathrow for the night. Already the cabin crew onboard BA 62 informed us about this. We arrived in HEL over 12 hours late.
I submitted our EC261 claim on the 6th and received the reply yesterday that we are eligible for 600 e pp. and a request to submit my banking details. I'm not a member of BAEC.
I submitted our EC261 claim on the 6th and received the reply yesterday that we are eligible for 600 e pp. and a request to submit my banking details. I'm not a member of BAEC.
Apr 19, 2019, 9:14 am
#352
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Worcester, GB
Programs: BAEC Gold, Hilton Gold, IHG Diamond
Posts: 157
Hi CWS. I'm after some advice please. I've read the 24 pages and searched FT but surprisingly came up pretty blank. We were delayed last week from LAS BA274 and BA have immediately accepted we are due 600e compensation per person, which we are more than happy with, but they have offered us a choice of 600e per person or a 900e pp evoucher for future travel. It must be booked within 12 months of issue, but not required to be flown by then. We fly leisure only, but 5-6 times a year so we would have chance to use these, half of the time we are ex-eu to keep the cost down, but we have been told that is fine and we can use the evoucher for these flights (I've seen the list of countries you cant use them from and we wouldn't fly from any of those). Do you have any experience of these? Are they as good a deal as they seem or would you avoid them and take the cash?
Apr 19, 2019, 9:16 am
#353
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,736
The catches, I guess, are: what if you get ill or your circumstances change so you can't use it? What if your travel was to one of the small number of countries where they can't use it? And I think if it's a Euro denominated voucher and a Sterling denominated ticket then you have to call up. But yes it is quite straightforward and a valid option to consider.
Apr 19, 2019, 11:05 am
#354
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Worcester, GB
Programs: BAEC Gold, Hilton Gold, IHG Diamond
Posts: 157
If you are sure you will be spending this voucher productively then I would certainly take the 900€ option. It works like an Amazon gift card. Every time you use it, the card gets reissued to the lower amount (or higher amount if you cancel a booking) and then you can use it bit by bit from there. Since it also bypasses the tedious credit approval stage it's actually quite handy and efficient, I don't know why BA don't retail them more generally. And you can also use them to book other people's travel if you are so inclined. The last transaction will typically be part voucher to use it all up, then part cash. That works fine online, but it then makes it difficult to change anything on the booking due to using 2 payment methods. Not impossible, just it will probably involve phone calls. So best to keep that for some short hop you won't amend. You can also travel up to 2 years hence, you can only book within the next year but then you have another year to get around to travelling.
The catches, I guess, are: what if you get ill or your circumstances change so you can't use it? What if your travel was to one of the small number of countries where they can't use it? And I think if it's a Euro denominated voucher and a Sterling denominated ticket then you have to call up. But yes it is quite straightforward and a valid option to consider.
The catches, I guess, are: what if you get ill or your circumstances change so you can't use it? What if your travel was to one of the small number of countries where they can't use it? And I think if it's a Euro denominated voucher and a Sterling denominated ticket then you have to call up. But yes it is quite straightforward and a valid option to consider.
Apr 22, 2019, 10:43 am
#355
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 1
Mia -Lhr - man
BA 208 was delayed over 3 hours departing which meant we missed BA 1394 which was due to land at MAN at 14:45
instead they put us on BA 1344 to LBA which landed at approx 17:25 with instructions to make our own way to Manchester and reclaim the costs from them. It will take approx 1:25 to get to MAN from here though I’m still waiting for luggage...
do we meet the requirements for compensation?
I’m actually minded not to head straight to Manchester and go there tomorrow am and instead go straight home from LBA (dads taxi instead of own car) with my exhausted 7yr old. Would this affect anything?
instead they put us on BA 1344 to LBA which landed at approx 17:25 with instructions to make our own way to Manchester and reclaim the costs from them. It will take approx 1:25 to get to MAN from here though I’m still waiting for luggage...
do we meet the requirements for compensation?
I’m actually minded not to head straight to Manchester and go there tomorrow am and instead go straight home from LBA (dads taxi instead of own car) with my exhausted 7yr old. Would this affect anything?
Apr 22, 2019, 12:00 pm
#356
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 2
Late AA flight and missed BA connection to LHR
Hi all,
Would appreciate your expertise here. My family and I were travelling MIA - YYZ - LHR on a single ticket sold by BA.
The AA operated MIA - YYZ flight was delayed and therefore we missed the BA connection to LHR. We were rerouted YYZ - ORD - LHR on AA flights arriving 6h15 mins late into LHR.
BA have advised as MIA - YYZ was operated by AA they are not liable for the compensation. Is this correct, does anyone know if there is any recourse.
Appreciate your help in advance.
Malc
Would appreciate your expertise here. My family and I were travelling MIA - YYZ - LHR on a single ticket sold by BA.
The AA operated MIA - YYZ flight was delayed and therefore we missed the BA connection to LHR. We were rerouted YYZ - ORD - LHR on AA flights arriving 6h15 mins late into LHR.
BA have advised as MIA - YYZ was operated by AA they are not liable for the compensation. Is this correct, does anyone know if there is any recourse.
Appreciate your help in advance.
Malc
Apr 22, 2019, 12:04 pm
#357
Ambassador, British Airways; FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Leeds, UK
Programs: BA GGL/CCR, GfL, HH Diamond
Posts: 42,890
Hi all,
Would appreciate your expertise here. My family and I were travelling MIA - YYZ - LHR on a single ticket sold by BA.
The AA operated MIA - YYZ flight was delayed and therefore we missed the BA connection to LHR. We were rerouted YYZ - ORD - LHR on AA flights arriving 6h15 mins late into LHR.
BA have advised as MIA - YYZ was operated by AA they are not liable for the compensation. Is this correct, does anyone know if there is any recourse.
Appreciate your help in advance.
Malc
Would appreciate your expertise here. My family and I were travelling MIA - YYZ - LHR on a single ticket sold by BA.
The AA operated MIA - YYZ flight was delayed and therefore we missed the BA connection to LHR. We were rerouted YYZ - ORD - LHR on AA flights arriving 6h15 mins late into LHR.
BA have advised as MIA - YYZ was operated by AA they are not liable for the compensation. Is this correct, does anyone know if there is any recourse.
Appreciate your help in advance.
Malc
Have a look at the reference posts at the start of the thread. However, this answer does suggest it is correct, just substitute QF for AA, both are non EU carriers and the delayed flight doesn't start or finish in the EU.
Q3: I am flying on BA to SYD, connecting to a domestic QF service to MEL. Am I covered by the Regulation if the QF flight from SYD to MEL is delayed or cancelled?
A3: The Regulation only applies to flights which start or finish in the EU. For the reasons mentioned in A16b, it probably means individual flight segments rather than overall itinerary and, therefore, the Regulation probably does not apply here. The same would also probably be true in the other direction, viz. delay to a QF flight from MEL to SYD connecting to a BA flight to LHR.
A3: The Regulation only applies to flights which start or finish in the EU. For the reasons mentioned in A16b, it probably means individual flight segments rather than overall itinerary and, therefore, the Regulation probably does not apply here. The same would also probably be true in the other direction, viz. delay to a QF flight from MEL to SYD connecting to a BA flight to LHR.
Apr 22, 2019, 12:25 pm
#358
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 2
Hi Karfa,
Thanks for the quick reply, I was uncertain from the reference posts if this example was a single connecting ticket issued by BA.
I saw the the EU ruling that "two or more flights booked as a single unit must be considered a single connecting flight" but this was for flights departing the EU.
Unfortunately am aware no compensation from AA can be claimed
Malc
Apr 22, 2019, 12:54 pm
#359
Ambassador: Emirates Airlines
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 18,600
BA 208 was delayed over 3 hours departing which meant we missed BA 1394 which was due to land at MAN at 14:45
instead they put us on BA 1344 to LBA which landed at approx 17:25 with instructions to make our own way to Manchester and reclaim the costs from them. It will take approx 1:25 to get to MAN from here though I’m still waiting for luggage...
do we meet the requirements for compensation?
I’m actually minded not to head straight to Manchester and go there tomorrow am and instead go straight home from LBA (dads taxi instead of own car) with my exhausted 7yr old. Would this affect anything?
instead they put us on BA 1344 to LBA which landed at approx 17:25 with instructions to make our own way to Manchester and reclaim the costs from them. It will take approx 1:25 to get to MAN from here though I’m still waiting for luggage...
do we meet the requirements for compensation?
I’m actually minded not to head straight to Manchester and go there tomorrow am and instead go straight home from LBA (dads taxi instead of own car) with my exhausted 7yr old. Would this affect anything?
Apr 27, 2019, 6:57 pm
#360
Join Date: Oct 2014
Programs: BA Executive Club
Posts: 93
Hi there,
Apologies if this is a stupid question - I've been searching but not able to find an answer. We were travelling in F on the BA 0007 from LHR to HND, on the 24th April, delayed arriving by 3 hours and 30 minutes. BA customer relations reached out proactively, offering 25,000 avios or a £300 e-voucher. As we're travelling I haven't responded, and now received another email stating that 25,000 avios will be deposited in my account shortly. This is all well and good, as I think I was going to take the avios anyway, normally managing to get greater than ~1.12p of value from them, but I was a little surprised there wasn't a wait for a response.
However, in spite of the customer service gesture am I correct in thinking I still need to seperately claim for the EC 261 compensation due of EUR €300 pp?
Thanks,
GabrielExea
Apologies if this is a stupid question - I've been searching but not able to find an answer. We were travelling in F on the BA 0007 from LHR to HND, on the 24th April, delayed arriving by 3 hours and 30 minutes. BA customer relations reached out proactively, offering 25,000 avios or a £300 e-voucher. As we're travelling I haven't responded, and now received another email stating that 25,000 avios will be deposited in my account shortly. This is all well and good, as I think I was going to take the avios anyway, normally managing to get greater than ~1.12p of value from them, but I was a little surprised there wasn't a wait for a response.
However, in spite of the customer service gesture am I correct in thinking I still need to seperately claim for the EC 261 compensation due of EUR €300 pp?
Thanks,
GabrielExea