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BA refuses boarding back to UK despite OK from Immigration Authorities

BA refuses boarding back to UK despite OK from Immigration Authorities

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Old Nov 26, 18, 7:33 am
  #91  
 
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Originally Posted by Saladman View Post
He needs an emergency travel document.
While an emergency travel document would clearly solve the issue, I doubt this is a requirement. People lose travel documents while abroad all the time and my understanding is that the great majority of them fly back without emergency travel documents but purely on the basis of said Home Office authorisation which is provided against some evidence. This could take the form of credit cards, driving licenses, etc. It does not have to be an EU-issued id card, a UK birth certificate, or other state-issued documents. Personally I would have thought that an expired EU-issued id card would have been sufficient to obtain an authorisation which is why I am surprised by the case.

The issue of having flown out on an expired document is entirely irrelevant to the present situation.
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Old Nov 26, 18, 8:22 am
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Originally Posted by Saladman View Post


BAs condition of carriage is that a valid travel document is required. If there isn't one then they are fully entitled to refuse travel.


This is the distinction and why presenting yourself at the actual border may result in a different outcome. What will allow you to enter the UK and what, as a matter of contract, satisfies BA's conditions of carriage may not be the same thing. BA may be persuadable, probably in consultation with the relevant UK authorities, but the tone of the OP's approach to BA may not have endeared them to that approach.
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Old Nov 26, 18, 8:29 am
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Maybe I'm missing something... but is it or is it not correct that BA carried the OP to Hungary with no valid travel documents in his possession?

And now the absence of such documents - very clearly an oversight - are preventing the OP's return to his adopted home of the UK.

It seems almost that it would have been better if the OP had realized during the flight to Hungary that he had no documents, and then had his admission to the country refused, so that at least he could go back home to get his passport or whatever other documents might have been left behind in the UK.
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Old Nov 26, 18, 8:30 am
  #94  
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One need not turn to UK or EU law beyond contracts, to resolve the immediate issue. That immediate issue is whether BA must transport OP, not whether he is admissible to the UK. OP agreed to a contract with BA by which he may only be transported with appropriate documents presented and it is his sole responsibility to present them. OP did not, so BA has reasonably denied boarding.

The rest of this is all a matter of customer service and OP's own efforts (or lack of effort). In that regard, BA could choose to transport OP if UK immigration authorities advise that he will be admitted.

At the same time, OP's wife is now back in the UK and could retrieve OP's passport and overnight it to him. In that case, he will be on the way to the UK tomorrow.

The rest is all really hard to parse without knowing the OP's citizenship. Travel logistics do matter and the question of OP perhaps travelling to that country to then obtain proper documents may be a function of geography.

For those who question why document expiration dates matter when the underlying issue does not, the answer is that document security standards change and improve over time. Hence passports, drivers licenses, and other official documents expire and are not useable in most circumstances.
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Old Nov 26, 18, 8:33 am
  #95  
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Originally Posted by Schultzois View Post
Maybe I'm missing something... but is it or is it not correct that BA carried the OP to Hungary with no valid travel documents in his possession? ....
Correct. When the OP checked in for his flight his passport information would have been provided demonstrating there was a valid travel document that entitled him to make the journey. At boarding the OP used his EU ID Card to prove identity but he didn't take the passport he had checked-in with,
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Old Nov 26, 18, 8:37 am
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Originally Posted by Tobias-UK View Post
Correct. When the OP checked in for his flight his passport information would have been provided demonstrating there was a valid travel document that entitled him to make the journey. At boarding the OP used his EU ID Card to prove identity.
That is the bit I missed... especially as passport info is preloaded in BAEC system most of the time, so one could very easily just confirm it without ever bothering to notice it was sitting on an embassy desk.

At boarding he provided a card that wasn't valid for travel (he'd already given that electronically), but did verify his identity... I can see how it can get blurry.
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Old Nov 26, 18, 8:39 am
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All of this is why I always say that I don't care what it's my suitcases, what I've packed, as long as I have my passport and a credit card. Everything else you can deal with at the other end.
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Old Nov 26, 18, 8:39 am
  #98  
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Originally Posted by Saladman View Post
I think you're getting a bit confused. The OPs ID card was expired. Therefore BAs condition of carriage is that a valid travel document is required. If there isn't one then they are fully entitled to refuse travel.
No, I am not confused. an ID card, even if expired, is still potentially evidence of the nationality of the bearer, and that is all that is required to be entitled to enter another EU Member States.This was all the more so here when the OP also had a copy of his passport and copy of his UK residence document. There was plenty there for UK immigration authorities to be satisfied that the OP was an EU national entitled to free movement. I can understand the BA agent being unsure and seeking guidance from UK immigration authorities on this. If the authorities confirm that the OP would in principle be admitted with such documents, then there is no reason for BA to refuse boarding.

Therefore BAs condition of carriage is that a valid travel document is required. If there isn't one then they are fully entitled to refuse travel.
What "is a travel document" ? It seems to me that a "travel document" is a document that will be accepted by the immigration authorities as prima facie evidence that the passenger should be admitted to the country. If that is so, documents that establish the OP's nationality as an EU citizen (including an expired ID card) should be regarded as acceptable travel document within the EU.

UK immigration's advice would be to refuse travel and advise the person to obtain an emergency travel document. Note, they are not denying entry as it hasn't got that far.
That is pure sophistry. Of course, they are de facto denying entry. It would be no less a breach of the right to free movement to prevent somebody who is entitled to free movement from reaching the border than it is not to let them cross it when they reach it.
They can hardly be expected to grant entry remotely and therefore advise BA to let the person travel, except in very very exceptional circumstances.
And what exactly are those "very very exceptional circumstances" if they do not cover the situation where somebody has not only an expired ID card but also a copy of passport and residence permit?
The immigration authorities should certainly indicate to the airline that the individual should be allowed to travel. Sure, they will want to have a closer look at the papers when he arrives and it may well be that they ultimately refuse entry but when an individual establishes a reasonable prima facie case that they are an EU national (which the OP, I would have thought, very clearly did), the advice should be that the individual should be accepted for boarding (which would shelter the airline from a potential fine).

Once they've established his EU identity then he will be allowed entry

He needs an emergency travel document.
But this approach is tantamount to thwarting the caselaw of the CJEU. The CJEU very explicitly says that a passport and valid ID card are NOT pre-conditions for gaining entry to another Member State and that ANY other document establishing that the individual is an EU citizen or a member of the family of an EU citizen should also be accepted as sufficient. Your approach says: no, we will ignore what the Court says and we will unilaterally decide that the only alternative we will accept is an emergency travel document.
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Old Nov 26, 18, 8:41 am
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Originally Posted by Often1 View Post
At the same time, OP's wife is now back in the UK and could retrieve OP's passport and overnight it to him. In that case, he will be on the way to the UK tomorrow.
I don't think it's that easy. OP's passport is some third embassy waiting for a visa. I doubt that embassy will hand the passport to anyone other than the person named in it.
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Old Nov 26, 18, 8:41 am
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Originally Posted by Schultzois View Post
but is it or is it not correct that BA carried the OP to Hungary with no valid travel documents in his possession?
We don't know because the OP would not disclose his nationality.
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Old Nov 26, 18, 8:46 am
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Originally Posted by Andriyko View Post
We don't know because the OP would not disclose his nationality.
So he could have had a document allowing travel to Hungary in his possession, you're suggesting? That does seem to contradict the rest of what has been said, but I agree with you, we don't know without knowing a bit more.
More than anything, I'm trying to piece together what exactly happened to get to this.
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Old Nov 26, 18, 8:48 am
  #102  
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Originally Posted by LondonElite View Post
I don't think it's that easy. OP's passport is some third embassy waiting for a visa. I doubt that embassy will hand the passport to anyone other than the person named in it.
OP has been asked numerous times for both the issuing country as well as the country holding his passport. The failure to provide that basic information makes a lot of this all the more difficult and renders OP's own statements less credible.

Perhaps, by way of example, OP can present himself at the third country's embassy in Hungary and perhaps arrangements can be made to courier the passport to the embassy.,

Perhaps UK authorities have document validity concerns about expired cards.

All "perhaps" without some basic information.
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Old Nov 26, 18, 8:51 am
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Originally Posted by Schultzois View Post
So he could have had a document allowing travel to Hungary in his possession, you're suggesting? That does seem to contradict the rest of what has been said, but I agree with you, we don't know without knowing a bit more.
More than anything, I'm trying to piece together what exactly happened to get to this.
Yes, he could have had sufficient documents to enter Hungary (an expired national ID of some countries would suffice).
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Old Nov 26, 18, 8:53 am
  #104  
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Originally Posted by Often1 View Post
One need not turn to UK or EU law beyond contracts, to resolve the immediate issue. That immediate issue is whether BA must transport OP, not whether he is admissible to the UK. OP agreed to a contract with BA by which he may only be transported with appropriate documents presented and it is his sole responsibility to present them.
This assumes that the two questions are unrelated, which they are not. What constitutes "appropriate documents" is related to conditions of admissibility. If the documents submitted by the OP constitute reasonable evidence of his entitlement to enter the country, then he has appropriate documents. If the airline is unsure whether these are appropriate documents, the airline can contact the authorities for confirmation.
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Old Nov 26, 18, 8:54 am
  #105  
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Originally Posted by Andriyko View Post
We don't know because the OP would not disclose his nationality.
Save that he is a European Union citizen, his nationality is relevant.
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