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BA refuses boarding back to UK despite OK from Immigration Authorities

BA refuses boarding back to UK despite OK from Immigration Authorities

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Old Nov 26, 18, 6:35 am
  #76  
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Originally Posted by fomc View Post
... 3. I agree that I'm the main one responsible for this but maintain that BA has some fault for letting me board in the first place. Since they didn't bother to check the validity when I left, why can't they return the same "favour" for my return to the UK? The annoying part is also that my wife mentioned that when she boarded the plane, the guys at the gate were looking at IDs super quickly and wasn't looking like they were checking validity, just for the name to match the ticket. Classic!
You need to accept that the reason you are in this predicament is because of your own negligence, it is not the airline's fault. You will have provided your passport information when you checked-in for your flight, unless the information is already stored in your BAEC profile. Your passport validity would have been verified when you checked-in.

The ID check at the departure gate is to verify that the person boarding the aircraft is the same person named in the reservation, the document dates are not verified at that point.

It is so easy when we make mistakes to find a reason to blame someone else for our own shortcomings. That isn't going to help you here. BA's document requirements are very clear and have been kindly posted supra by @LTN Phobia, that requirement is for BA's protection, not yours.

7a) Our right to refuse to carry you
7a15) If you have not, or do not appear to have, valid travel documents.

13a1) You (not us) must:
check the relevant entry requirements for any country you are visiting and
present to us all passports, visas, health certificates and other travel documents needed for your journey.
Now it is clear from what you have posted that you did not satisfy 13a1 and accordingly BA invoked 7a. The wording is clear "you (not us) must".

Fortunately for you, EU law is on your side regarding your right to free movement, @simons1 quoted the relevant passage from Article 5 of EC38/2004 above. I suggest presenting yourself to the airline of your choice armed with that information and ask the airline (before purchasing your ticket) if they would call the UK authorities to clear you for arrival. The UK requires airlines to provide TDI (API) (s27B Immigration Act 1971) so booking travel without any valid travel document will lead to the same problem you experienced with BA. Do bear in mind that EC38/2004 applies to EU/EEA states (and their immigration authorities) and not to airlines so you will need to bring this Regulation to their attention and ask them to contact the UK Border Force to clear your departure.

I would stop trying to apportion blame rather concentrate on the resolution. I wish you luck.

Last edited by Tobias-UK; Nov 26, 18 at 6:42 am Reason: Fat fingers
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Old Nov 26, 18, 6:37 am
  #77  
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Originally Posted by wobbly wings View Post
What I don't understand is why the Home Office would deny entry to a permanent residence.
Probably because the OP is not carrying evidence of his permanent residency either, because he left his residence card at home.

Expired ID card + lack of Residence Card (without a really good reason like theft that has been reported to the police and with documentary evidence of having done so) would probably not go down well at the UK border.

I am not surprised that BA is not allowing the OP to travel given the lack of suitable travel documents.
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Old Nov 26, 18, 6:41 am
  #78  
 
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Originally Posted by fomc View Post
1. I never said I KNOWINGLY exited the UK with an invalid ID. I ALWAYS travel with my passport, I know exactly when my passport expires. Because the passport was not with me at the time, I decided to take my EU ID....I Forgot to check the expiration date. Probably because in my mind I had this idea that my passport is 5 years away from expiring. Who knows, anyway my fault for not checking the validity. I only discovered the ID was invalid upon arrival in Hungary.
Maybe your problem is that you have some sort of memory issue. You should take a look back at your posts from before you left on your trip...

https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g187234-i138-k12126563-Nice_Airport_Passport_Control-Nice_French_Riviera_Cote_d_Azur_Provence_Alpes_Cot e_d_Azur.html#96
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Old Nov 26, 18, 6:47 am
  #79  
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Originally Posted by Newman55 View Post
Maybe your problem is that you have some sort of memory issue. You should take a look back at your posts from before you left on your trip...

https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopi...d_Azur.html#96
or maybe you have NO attention to detail?
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Old Nov 26, 18, 6:48 am
  #80  
 
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Originally Posted by Saladman View Post
This is surprisingly simple to sort out. The rules state that you cannot travel without adequate documents, so there is no way that an airline will consider carriage, It makes no difference that you are willing to pay the fine - it's not just the money but the repuational damage too, that they knowingly broke the law on the basis that someone else would pay the fine. The law doesn't work like that.

You need an emergency travel document, which can be obtained from your consulate. If you need a birth certificate for that and it sounds like you do, then the best way is to get your wife to fly it out immediately. If you're willing to pay £3000 as a fine, then a ticket to Budapest is clearly a massive saving. She could have done that first thing today, and you could have applied for the document today.

Someone's else picking your passport up is probably going to be problematic.

One further thing, photocopies/photos of documents are almost always, not considered acceptable. You need the original.
it’s actually “problematic” and usually with a severe penalty to travel across an “international” ie passport requiring border in possession of someone else’s passport : you may hear conflicting information about this and some border officials will let the passport through with some notarized documents but it’s best to have it mailed securely not “brought”....by some one else.
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Old Nov 26, 18, 6:49 am
  #81  
 
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Originally Posted by LTN Phobia View Post
Probably because the OP is not carrying evidence of his permanent residency either, because he left his residence card at home.

Expired ID card + lack of Residence Card (without a really good reason like theft that has been reported to the police and with documentary evidence of having done so) would probably not go down well at the UK border.

I am not surprised that BA is not allowing the OP to travel given the lack of suitable travel documents.
This has nothing to do with BA. It's all to do with Home Office issuing the reference number for the pax to travel. BA won't let the pax board without Home Office authorisation. However the Home Office should provide the reference when presented with the situation by the airline and some minimal evidence the pax in question is who he portrays to be. They can easily check if the pax in question is a permanent resident, and, in fact, permanent residency is not required to be issued with permission to return home as long as the person normally resides in the UK.
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Old Nov 26, 18, 6:50 am
  #82  
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Under EU rules, documents such as passports and ID cards only have evidentiary value. They are not a condition of access to the country. If an individual is in a position to establish that he is an EU national by any other means, then entry to another EU Member State cannot be refused. There is a case decided by the CJEU a long time ago (Giagounidis is the name of the case) regarding a Greek national with a Greek identity card which, at the time at any rate, was only valid within Greece and did not allow the holder to travel. The Court found that Germany could not deny entry and residence on its territory with someone in possession of such a document, since it established that the individual was a Greek national and therefore an EU citizen entitled to free movement.

I would have thought that the same would be true of an expired ID card, as long as we are not talking of an ID card that expired eons ago. If so and if the OP was refused access to the plane with such a document, it seems to me that this would be: (1) either because BA consulted UK immigration and UK immigration said no, in which case UK immigration are prima facie in breach of EU law or (2) BA did not contact UK immigration or contacted them and refused entry despite UK immigration saying yes, in which case BA would seem prima facie to be in breach of its CoC as the OP had sufficient documentation to enable him to travel.
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Old Nov 26, 18, 6:52 am
  #83  
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Originally Posted by wobbly wings View Post
This has nothing to do with BA. It's all to do with Home Office issuing the reference number for the pax to travel. BA won't let the pax board without Home Office authorisation. However the Home Office should provide the reference when presented with the situation by the airline and some minimal evidence the pax in question is who he portrays to be. They can easily check if the pax in question is a permanent resident, and, in fact, permanent residency is not required to be issued with permission to return home as long as the person normally resides in the UK.
I was not blaming BA in any way - merely saying that it justified their action in denying boarding to the OP, as it appears from the OP's earlier post that they tried, and failed, to get the reference number (which may have been due to lack of sufficient evidence of the OP's EU citizenship*).

So, that would be a legitimate reason for BA not allowing the OP to travel:
Originally Posted by fomc View Post
[- snipped -] BA handler agent then disappears and comes back 30 min later saying bad news, “UK border is refusing to give us a reference code for you coming to LHR”. I smell total BS after I ask him what phone number he contacted. He tells me he can’t give the number because only BA can have it. Really? [- snipped-]
* Some countries in the EU I believe do not permit dual citizenship with the exception of citizenship of another EU country and therefore, there may have even been a suspicion that the OP did not hold a valid citizenship of that country which originally issued the expired ID. Since the OP has not mentioned his nationality, we won't know the answer to this particular question (at least not yet).

Last edited by LTN Phobia; Nov 26, 18 at 7:17 am
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Old Nov 26, 18, 6:52 am
  #84  
 
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I am confused by the discussion here of BA’s eligibility-to-enter checks, on the original outbound short-haul flight.

I often travel hand-baggage only, departing London.

I know that when travelling long-haul, I must always attend the passport check desk first, where my eligibility to enter through the border at my destination is checked.

But on short-haul from London, this check does not seem to be required, and I never undergo it. On more than one one sad occasion, this has caused me to discover only at the gate that I have forgotten my passport altogether, when I looked for it to prove my identity (though not border entry eligibility) whilst boarding.

What is the original eligibility-to-enter check here, that the OP claims BA has failed to correctly perform? I am not sure this is actually a check that is done at all, is it? Or perhaps it somehow happens behind the scenes.

T
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Old Nov 26, 18, 6:52 am
  #85  
 
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Originally Posted by fomc View Post
or maybe you have NO attention to detail?
I'm quite clear on the details you provided before you left when you said your EU ID card was expired. Perhaps you should go back and review and stop wasting everyone's time.

You're at fault. Grow up and take responsibility.
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Old Nov 26, 18, 6:56 am
  #86  
 
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From experience of travelling with a non-EU resident (my wife), she will either have to present herself at a check in or transfer desk, very occasionally she has a visa check at the gate.

For EU flights as an EU resident (as is the OP) your ID is checked at the gate or at a passport booth when going from Schengen to non-Schengen, but the checks are less stringent (and I would guess that the boarding checks are less stringent than the booth checks).

So checks are essentially different depending on circumstance. You'd find the same if you were travelling to the US or China for example.
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Old Nov 26, 18, 7:01 am
  #87  
 
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Originally Posted by Newman55 View Post
I'm quite clear on the details you provided before you left when you said your EU ID card was expired. Perhaps you should go back and review and stop wasting everyone's time.

You're at fault. Grow up and take responsibility.
Date on the TA post is the 24th, i.e. after the check at the border and what led from that, and so presumably he was looking at options. Where I agree the OP needs to own this personally, best to avoid being too judgemental maybe?
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Old Nov 26, 18, 7:13 am
  #88  
 
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For the OP’s info, last year I walked from Hook of Holland to Nice; this year from Trieste to Nice. Despite crossing numerous borders, I never showed any ID.
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Old Nov 26, 18, 7:19 am
  #89  
 
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I fail to see why the fact that BA accepted the ID on the outbound has any relevance whatsoever.
If OP had flown to Hungary with another airline that did accept the expired ID , and only the return was booked on BA;
what difference would that make to their refusal to board for the return?
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Old Nov 26, 18, 7:20 am
  #90  
 
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Originally Posted by NickB View Post
Under EU rules, documents such as passports and ID cards only have evidentiary value. They are not a condition of access to the country. If an individual is in a position to establish that he is an EU national by any other means, then entry to another EU Member State cannot be refused. There is a case decided by the CJEU a long time ago (Giagounidis is the name of the case) regarding a Greek national with a Greek identity card which, at the time at any rate, was only valid within Greece and did not allow the holder to travel. The Court found that Germany could not deny entry and residence on its territory with someone in possession of such a document, since it established that the individual was a Greek national and therefore an EU citizen entitled to free movement.

I would have thought that the same would be true of an expired ID card, as long as we are not talking of an ID card that expired eons ago. If so and if the OP was refused access to the plane with such a document, it seems to me that this would be: (1) either because BA consulted UK immigration and UK immigration said no, in which case UK immigration are prima facie in breach of EU law or (2) BA did not contact UK immigration or contacted them and refused entry despite UK immigration saying yes, in which case BA would seem prima facie to be in breach of its CoC as the OP had sufficient documentation to enable him to travel.
I think you're getting a bit confused. The OPs ID card was expired. Therefore BAs condition of carriage is that a valid travel document is required. If there isn't one then they are fully entitled to refuse travel.

UK immigration's advice would be to refuse travel and advise the person to obtain an emergency travel document. Note, they are not denying entry as it hasn't got that far. They can hardly be expected to grant entry remotely and therefore advise BA to let the person travel, except in very very exceptional circumstances. Once they've established his EU identity then he will be allowed entry.

He needs an emergency travel document.
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