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Originally Posted by moeve
(Post 30471944)
BA does however specify that your documents need to be valid for travel and Hungry is actually one EU country that is on the list of not accepting expired EU ID cards. Therefore BA flew a passenger to Hungry without the correct documents. The fact that Hungry apparently overlooked the issue as well doesn’t exonerate the airline either. Factually all three screwed up on the incoming trip. |
Originally Posted by moeve
(Post 30471928)
Expired EU ID cards are no longer valid for across border travel for most EU countries. Hungary is one of those who DO NOT ACCEPT expired EU ID cards - I asked just three weeks ago because my German ID card came up for renewal and I was not sure the new one would come in time for my plans next week and like the OP my passport is currently at an Embassy for a visa for another trip.
Originally Posted by moeve
(Post 30471944)
BA does however specify that your documents need to be valid for travel and Hungry is actually one EU country that is on the list of not accepting expired EU ID cards. Therefore BA flew a passenger to Hungry without the correct documents. The fact that Hungry apparently overlooked the issue as well doesn’t exonerate the airline either. Factually all three screwed up on the incoming trip. It wasnt overlooked by Hungarian officials, to the contrary they picked it up and let the OP in when he produced an emailed copy of his passport. Nothing to do with BA - there are no exit controls on leaving UK. There is no such list, in fact not to accept the expired ID if the traveller can establish his credentials (which he did with a passport copy) would be contrary to EC directives. Hopefully the traveller will be back from 'Hungry' by now......I wonder if he is hungry after his ordeal? |
Just a quick technical point - the potential fine (Immigration Carriers Liability Act) is NOT dependent on whether or not you are allowed entry; it is a fine for allowing you to travel without the correct documentation (obviously unless prior authorisation is held).
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Originally Posted by redrob
(Post 30472491)
Just a quick technical point - the potential fine (Immigration Carriers Liability Act) is NOT dependent on whether or not you are allowed entry; it is a fine for allowing you to travel without the correct documentation (obviously unless prior authorisation is held).
So if BA had contacted immigration who had agreed entry then there is no financial risk. See appendix A. https://www.gov.uk/government/public...ing-procedures |
But the fine is not imposed "Where there is evidence that the carrier had acted on the advice of a representative of the United Kingdom Government, and it was reasonable, in the circumstances, for the carrier to rely on that advice."
So if BA had contacted immigration who had agreed entry then there is no financial risk. Yes, I realise that. Hence my caveat "unless prior authorisation is held" My comment was purely made in response to the OP's (much) earlier comment that BA wouldn't be fined as he would 100% be allowed in.. |
Originally Posted by redrob
(Post 30472491)
Just a quick technical point - the potential fine (Immigration Carriers Liability Act) is NOT dependent on whether or not you are allowed entry; it is a fine for allowing you to travel without the correct documentation (obviously unless prior authorisation is held).
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Originally Posted by rlnnpt
(Post 30473357)
In which case it sounds like BA is liable to pay this fine for the LHR-OTP leg? |
Originally Posted by UKtravelbear
(Post 30473389)
Only if the Hungarians imposed one on them for carrying an inadvisable person to OTP. And as the OP was admitted then there is no basis for BA to be fined.
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Feel bad but only so much
Add me to the list of folks who feel bad for the OP but feel he is blaming everybody but himself. Sorry buddy but you flew with expired documents. In the end you have nobody to blame but yourself. |
Originally Posted by UKtravelbear
(Post 30473389)
Only if the Hungarians imposed one on them for carrying an inadvisable person to OTP. And as the OP was admitted then there is no basis for BA to be fined.
I assume it means BUD rather than OTP? |
Originally Posted by LTN Phobia
(Post 30474053)
I assume it means BUD rather than OTP?
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Originally Posted by fatlasercat
(Post 30474102)
Budapest or Bucharest, easy to confuse... Although the former managed to get a much better IATA code. I guess Burketown beat the Romanians for BUC.
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Originally Posted by LTN Phobia
(Post 30474053)
I think the Hungarian authority might be a bit reluctant to get involved in something that happened between the UK and Romania... :D
I assume it means BUD rather than OTP?
Originally Posted by fatlasercat
(Post 30474102)
Budapest or Bucharest, easy to confuse... Although the former managed to get a much better IATA code. I guess Burketown beat the Romanians for BUC.
I can’t help it if the OP has no idea where he is ;) |
Originally Posted by UKtravelbear
(Post 30474153)
well the OP wrote in post 1 that the BA staffer “calls Hungarian immigration office” so that’s what I wrote Hungarian in my post! And the person I was quoting said OTP. I can’t help it if the OP has no idea where he is ;) Is it simply a matter of confusion somewhere up-thread, or is the OP actually in Bucharest, rather than Budapest? |
Totally agree no matter what the trip holiday or business, short haul or long haul so long as I have my passport and. credit cards I figure I can always get what I need when I arrive. I have a feeling that one day I might forget the luggage and put this theory to the test but I'm sure my better half will be looking over my shoulder.
As to this thread the OP seems to be unable to accept that BA did what they consider to be correct the fact that they took him there is completely irrelevant and he needs to forget that and concentrate on getting his act together and getting home, of course he could ask his wife to join him for a break he sounds as though he needs it |
Originally Posted by rlnnpt
(Post 30473357)
In which case it sounds like BA is liable to pay this fine for the LHR-OTP leg? What fine - there wasn't one as OP was admitted to Hungary. And if using codes at least use the right one..... |
Originally Posted by simons1
(Post 30472542)
So if BA had contacted immigration who had agreed entry then there is no financial risk.
BA did, and no authorization was given. What else is there to discuss?
Originally Posted by simons1
(Post 30472449)
There is no such list,
Except that there is such a list. That the list promulgated by the UK government contravenes the EU law is not the airline's fault. Airlines do not accept passengers for travel based on the advice of an airlines forum.
Originally Posted by simons1
(Post 30472449)
in fact not to accept the expired ID if the traveller can establish his credentials (which he did with a passport copy) would be contrary to EC directives.
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Originally Posted by Andriyko
(Post 30474747)
Except that there is such a list.
That the list promulgated by the UK government contravenes the EU law is not the airline's fault. Airlines do not accept passengers for travel based on the advice of an airlines forum..
Originally Posted by moeve
(Post 30471944)
Hungry is actually one EU country that is on the list of not accepting expired EU ID cards. Therefore BA flew a passenger to Hungry without the correct documents. The fact that Hungry apparently overlooked the issue as well doesn’t exonerate the airline either.
However since you know moeve's list exists then do share the link with us as it is relevant to OP's case: surely no-one would travel using an expired ID to a country appearing on a published list as not accepting expired IDs. |
Originally Posted by simons1
(Post 30474860)
If you stopped banging your BA drum for 5 mins
If you open TIMATIC you will see the list of documents that airlines can accept for travel. I can see though that you are continuing a discussion, that is completely unrelated to airlines, about which documents governments must accept and who they must allow into their countries. The UK government, for example, is very open about the fact that documents must be valid and makes no mention of expired documents at all. https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control...ave-for-the-uk |
Originally Posted by Andriyko
(Post 30474895)
Not need to get personal. It does not advance the discussion. It is not about BA as the requirements are the same for all airlines.
If you open TIMATIC you will see the list of documents that airlines can accept for travel. I can see though that you are continuing a discussion, that is completely unrelated to airlines, about which documents governments must accept and who they must allow into their countries. The UK government, for example, is very open about the fact that documents must be valid and makes no mention of expired documents at all. https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control...ave-for-the-uk I am talking specifically about a list of countries which no longer accept expired EU ID cards which moeve referred to (with Hungary on it) and you confirm exists. When the OP presented himself at the Hungarian border with his expired EU ID card I am quite sure the Hungarian official did not rely on TIMATIC, or an airline list, or some UK government guidance. Until then I maintain there is no such list, evidenced by the fact that consistent with EC directives the OP was able to enter Hungary by corroborating his status via other means (emailed passport copy). That is entirely relevant to the OP as having landed himself in Hungary after a BA flight he was unable to return to UK on his BA return flight. At no stage have I attributed reponsibility to BA although one assumes by allowing travel to Budapest they were satisfied the OP could be landed in Hungary with an expired ID card. |
Originally Posted by simons1
(Post 30474917)
I am talking specifically about a list of countries which no longer accept expired EU ID cards which moeve referred to (with Hungary on it) and you confirm exists. I won't do your research for you, but, yes, some E.U. member states accept expired national ID cards of some countries. French ID cards issued prior to a certain day, for example, are considered to be extended by 5 years. You need to consult each individual government for such a list of accepted documents. That list will correspond to what airlines will accept for travel (so, basically, TIMATIC will tell you the same thing). Hungary, actually, does accept expired IDs of some EU countries as valid documents rather than 'other means.' Then there is this, for example (this is a quote from the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006): the immigration officer must give the person every reasonable opportunity to obtain the document or have it brought to him within a reasonable period of time or to prove by other means that he is There is no specific list as to what those 'other means' are. An expired ID may not cut it. It may be a different, valid, document. Basically, there is a list of documents that guarantee entry for an EEA national, and then there is a requirement for the immigration officer to allow someone who is not in possession of one of such documents to prove by other means that they are an EEA national rather than turn them away immediately. Opinions will differ as to what those other means are. |
Sooo....quick update for everyone. Got my passport, breezed through Hungarian immigration and flew out of BUDAPEST. However at Boarding gate, I show my boarding pass and actually my (guess what!!!!), Expired EU ID. NOT on purpose...passport was in my bag and ID in my pocket so easier to get. The person looks at my boarding pass and EXPIRED EU ID for less than 1 second and let’s me through. What a total Joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Essentially this tells me that BA relies 100% on the immigration guys. Also, what I never understood is how come there’s no immigration control when exiting UK into EU but there is one at the exit of all EU countries into the UK?!?! I get that Britain is not in Schengen but why is exit from the UK into EU treated differently than entry into the UK from EU? when I tried to unsuccessfully board on Sunday, the immigration guy after giving me his approval said,” let me go to the gate and check with BA if they are willing to take you”. He went, explained and came back with a no. That’s an interesting situation....if the guy wouldn’t have checked himself with BA that I can fly, I would have gone to the gate and been fine. When he said “im fine to let you go if BA is fine”, I should have told him to let me go to the board myself. But because he was the one that raised the issue, that obviously prompted BA to refuse boarding. If he said immigration is fine with my exit, why didn’t he just let me go myself to the gate? I mean I didn’t think of asking this but I wonder if he would have let me? Once immigration cleared me, it would have been my own business if I was able to board or not. If yes, I continue. If not, I return. |
Originally Posted by Andriyko
(Post 30474942)
I won't do your research for you, but, yes, some E.U. member states accept expired national ID cards of some countries. French ID cards issued prior to a certain day, for example, are considered to be extended by 5 years. You need to consult each individual government for such a list of accepted documents. That list will correspond to what airlines will accept for travel (so, basically, TIMATIC will tell you the same thing). Hungary, actually, does accept expired IDs of some EU countries as valid documents rather than 'other means.' Then there is this, for example (this is a quote from the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006): the immigration officer must give the person every reasonable opportunity to obtain the document or have it brought to him within a reasonable period of time or to prove by other means that he is There is no specific list as to what those 'other means' are. An expired ID may not cut it. It may be a different, valid, document. Basically, there is a list of documents that guarantee entry for an EEA national, and then there is a requirement for the immigration officer to allow someone who is not in possession of one of such documents to prove by other means that they are an EEA national rather than turn them away immediately. Opinions will differ as to what those other means are. Otherwise I'm glad we got there in the end. There is no list of countries refusing to accept expired EU IDs that has Hungary on it. Exactly the point I made. |
Originally Posted by fomc
(Post 30475101)
Sooo....quick update for everyone. Got my passport, breezed through Hungarian immigration and flew out of BUDAPEST. However at Boarding gate, I show my boarding pass and actually my (guess what!!!!), Expired EU ID. NOT on purpose...passport was in my bag and ID in my pocket so easier to get. The person looks at my boarding pass and EXPIRED EU ID for less than 1 second and let’s me through. What a total Joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Essentially this tells me that BA relies 100% on the immigration guys. OK. So BA didn't check every fine detail on your ID. So either they just matched name or just didn't check the date. Or just missed it. They are human and we all make mistakes. Mind you, the bigger question is surely how, after the last few days of this experience, you could possibly forget that your EU ID had expired! As you say, "What a total Joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" :D |
Originally Posted by gms
(Post 30475155)
OK. So BA didn't check every fine detail on your ID. So either they just matched name or just didn't check the date. Or just missed it. They are human and we all make mistakes. Mind you, the bigger question is surely how, after the last few days of this experience, you could possibly forget that your EU ID had expired! As you say, "What a total Joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" :D
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Originally Posted by simons1
(Post 30475127)
Otherwise I'm glad we got there in the end. There is no list of countries refusing to accept expired EU IDs that has Hungary on it. Exactly the point I made. I am lost as to what you are trying to say...:confused: There is no common list for all E.U. countries detailing which documents are not accepted. Each country publishes its own requirements (or list, if you will). However, the list is of documents that are accepted for entry. If an expired ID is not on the list then we can make a logical conclusion that it is an unacceptable document. For example, here is the list of accepted documents for the UK (all two of them) https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control...ave-for-the-uk You can enter the UK with either a valid passport or a national identity card issued by a EEA country. For the purpose of our discussion we may safely assume that if an expired ID is not on the list of the accepted documents that means that it is not accepted. Does not that make sense? We don't know what documents or evidence the UK government will accept as 'other means' of proving that someone is an EAA national. The idea is to have a document from the only list that is available - that of accepted documents. It is very easy to prepare a list of documents that Hungary does not accept. We just need to know the nationality of the person seeking entry. For example, if the traveller is a citizen of Germany, their expired (up to a year) ID won't be on the list of documents not accepted by Hungary, but if the traveller is a citizen of Latvia then their expired ID will be. You can prepare such a list yourself if you have time. Such a list, however, won't serve any purpose. I don't understand your preoccupation with it. |
Originally Posted by fomc
(Post 30475101)
The person looks at my boarding pass and EXPIRED EU ID for less than 1 second and let’s me through. What a total Joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Essentially this tells me that BA relies 100% on the immigration guys. I'm surprised you're surprised. We all know that the priority is to get you on board and complete the turnaround process as quickly as possible. The airlines take a certain amount of risk on this by only having cursory checks, and they mitigate that by using API (which you provided when you left London, and also BUD), immigration control to ensure documents are in date and not stolen/forged when scanned, and performing a name check at the gate. If they'd read your passport instead, do you think they'd have got as far as looking at the expiry date? I'm sure half the time I present mine my finger partly obscures it, and I've never had anyone ask for a closer look. However, as soon as the issue was pointed out to them they'd have been utterly mad not to take the time to investigate it. The risk factor went right off the scale at that point. The next time you tried to fly you weren't flagged and so underwent the usual lower level scrutiny. Also, what I never understood is how come there’s no immigration control when exiting UK into EU but there is one at the exit of all EU countries into the UK?!?! I get that Britain is not in Schengen but why is exit from the UK into EU treated differently than entry into the UK from EU? |
Originally Posted by Andriyko
(Post 30475178)
I am lost as to what you are trying to say.
In post 162 I said this was incorrect, there is no such list (and that BA/Hungary immigration acted properly) In post 177 you corrected me and said there was a list. I therefore asked you to direct us to it. At that stage (post 181) you then dissembled and said you would not do my homework - well there is no homework to be done to prove that a list which does not exist does not exist. You also quoted back to me some text that I was aware of as I had already posted it many pages before. So my point remains - there is no list of countries which do not accept expired EU IDs.
Originally Posted by Andriyko
(Post 30475178)
For the purpose of our discussion we may safely assume that if an expired ID is not on the list of the accepted documents that means that it is not accepted. Does not that make sense?
Still the OP is now back, it appears he was allowed to board again using his expired ID. In which case had he just gone through the immigration the first time when the authorities agreed he could exit then the probability is it would not have been picked up until the UK Border who would almost certainly have allowed him entry. For the sake of clarity I am not making a point about BA or Hungarian immigration so I think we can agree there is no need for us to 'spin' that bit. I am a touch surprised that BA allowed travel each way with sight of an expired document however it is of no relevance as they are not the final authority on immigration matters. |
there is no downside to telling us of one's nationality. OP ask for help but refuses to give one of the more important information. He simply keeps denying responsibility for his situation and insist others are at fault. Seems to have a DYKWIA attitude. He calls TA posters a bunch of amateurs and that those on FT the real deal yet the advise, and discussion, given on both threads are the same.
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some contradiction on posters word.
he says- " When he said “im fine to let you go if BA is fine”, I should have told him to let me go to the board myself. But because he was the one that raised the issue, that obviously prompted BA to refuse boarding. (this he- was the exit immigration) then he says " What a total Joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Essentially this tells me that BA relies 100% on the immigration guys " If BA relies 100 on immigration guys then there was no need for immigrations to say that " I'm fine to let you go if BA is fine " Immigrations was fine to let you out of their country. They have no control if an airline should carry you with the documents you possess. You listed 8 reasons why UK should let you in on your OP Yes, UKBF can verify you if they want to. No, you cannot get a temp. passport from your consulate because you can;t a birth certificate. But I dont' hear you ..... about your consulate. But, using your arguments, they have it on their government electronic database about your birth certificate. Yet you only lambast BA and UKBF and not your embassy too. Point is, none of these agencies have to go to great lengths to verify you. Otherwise everyone will just ask for that and entry/exit into a country could be means standing at immigration lines for hours or days. It is up to you to present the documents, not for them to dig it up. |
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Originally Posted by fomc
(Post 30475101)
NOT on purpose...
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Originally Posted by fomc
(Post 30475101)
I show my boarding pass and actually my (guess what!!!!), Expired EU ID. NOT on purpose I shall be a bit more direct than my esteemed previous poster. Come on now, you did this on purpose just to check what happened. Why not just be honest about it? Glad you made it back ok. |
The reply of the border agent when asked what would have happened had I been allowed by BA to board: ”we would have done some checks on our side and YES we would have let you in. At the same time, we would have also fined BA 2/3k (didn’t know exact figure), for letting you travel with expired doc, even with your entry granted. BA has a responsibility as airline to make sure passengers carry valid documents” so, why would border agency give a fine to BA if BA wouldn’t have responsibility to check validity?!?! By the presence of the fine, you can logically infer that they do have that responsibility....else there would be no fine! So shouldnt they bear some responsibility for letting me board in the first place in London? I understand they have the online system (that had my valid passport details stored...I travel only on the passport most timed), but they still need to check at the gate I think. BA not checking my ID validity on the way back to London is definitely against the rules, as the Border agent confirmed. he also confirmed they do give these pre-arrival authorisation checks to airline. Didn’t have time to ask specifics: who exactly answers the line. |
As:
- the OP has, thankfully, safety arrived back home to hopefully not too severe an ear bashing from his spouse and - we are now in very grave danger of heading right back to square one by rehashing arguments we've already had where the OP has received sage and practical advice (it being entirely his choice as to whether or not to accept it). Now would seem an appropriate time to apply the padlock. /mod |
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