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BA refuses boarding back to UK despite OK from Immigration Authorities

BA refuses boarding back to UK despite OK from Immigration Authorities

Old Nov 28, 18, 2:18 am
  #181  
 
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Originally Posted by simons1 View Post
I am talking specifically about a list of countries which no longer accept expired EU ID cards which moeve referred to (with Hungary on it) and you confirm exists.

I won't do your research for you, but, yes, some E.U. member states accept expired national ID cards of some countries. French ID cards issued prior to a certain day, for example, are considered to be extended by 5 years. You need to consult each individual government for such a list of accepted documents. That list will correspond to what airlines will accept for travel (so, basically, TIMATIC will tell you the same thing). Hungary, actually, does accept expired IDs of some EU countries as valid documents rather than 'other means.'

Then there is this, for example (this is a quote from the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006):

the immigration officer must give the person every reasonable opportunity to obtain the document or have it brought to him within a reasonable period of time or to prove by other means that he is

There is no specific list as to what those 'other means' are. An expired ID may not cut it. It may be a different, valid, document. Basically, there is a list of documents that guarantee entry for an EEA national, and then there is a requirement for the immigration officer to allow someone who is not in possession of one of such documents to prove by other means that they are an EEA national rather than turn them away immediately. Opinions will differ as to what those other means are.

Last edited by Andriyko; Nov 28, 18 at 2:23 am
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Old Nov 28, 18, 4:36 am
  #182  
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Sooo....quick update for everyone. Got my passport, breezed through Hungarian immigration and flew out of BUDAPEST. However at Boarding gate, I show my boarding pass and actually my (guess what!!!!), Expired EU ID. NOT on purpose...passport was in my bag and ID in my pocket so easier to get. The person looks at my boarding pass and EXPIRED EU ID for less than 1 second and let’s me through. What a total Joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Essentially this tells me that BA relies 100% on the immigration guys.

Also, what I never understood is how come there’s no immigration control when exiting UK into EU but there is one at the exit of all EU countries into the UK?!?! I get that Britain is not in Schengen but why is exit from the UK into EU treated differently than entry into the UK from EU?

when I tried to unsuccessfully board on Sunday, the immigration guy after giving me his approval said,” let me go to the gate and check with BA if they are willing to take you”. He went, explained and came back with a no. That’s an interesting situation....if the guy wouldn’t have checked himself with BA that I can fly, I would have gone to the gate and been fine. When he said “im fine to let you go if BA is fine”, I should have told him to let me go to the board myself. But because he was the one that raised the issue, that obviously prompted BA to refuse boarding. If he said immigration is fine with my exit, why didn’t he just let me go myself to the gate? I mean I didn’t think of asking this but I wonder if he would have let me? Once immigration cleared me, it would have been my own business if I was able to board or not. If yes, I continue. If not, I return.

Last edited by fomc; Nov 28, 18 at 4:46 am
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Old Nov 28, 18, 4:56 am
  #183  
 
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Originally Posted by Andriyko View Post

I won't do your research for you, but, yes, some E.U. member states accept expired national ID cards of some countries. French ID cards issued prior to a certain day, for example, are considered to be extended by 5 years. You need to consult each individual government for such a list of accepted documents. That list will correspond to what airlines will accept for travel (so, basically, TIMATIC will tell you the same thing). Hungary, actually, does accept expired IDs of some EU countries as valid documents rather than 'other means.'

Then there is this, for example (this is a quote from the Immigration (European Economic Area) Regulations 2006):

the immigration officer must give the person every reasonable opportunity to obtain the document or have it brought to him within a reasonable period of time or to prove by other means that he is

There is no specific list as to what those 'other means' are. An expired ID may not cut it. It may be a different, valid, document. Basically, there is a list of documents that guarantee entry for an EEA national, and then there is a requirement for the immigration officer to allow someone who is not in possession of one of such documents to prove by other means that they are an EEA national rather than turn them away immediately. Opinions will differ as to what those other means are.
Yes I'm aware of the quote thanks....I was the one who posted it in #41 .....

Otherwise I'm glad we got there in the end. There is no list of countries refusing to accept expired EU IDs that has Hungary on it. Exactly the point I made.
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Old Nov 28, 18, 5:15 am
  #184  
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Originally Posted by fomc View Post
Sooo....quick update for everyone. Got my passport, breezed through Hungarian immigration and flew out of BUDAPEST. However at Boarding gate, I show my boarding pass and actually my (guess what!!!!), Expired EU ID. NOT on purpose...passport was in my bag and ID in my pocket so easier to get. The person looks at my boarding pass and EXPIRED EU ID for less than 1 second and let’s me through. What a total Joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Essentially this tells me that BA relies 100% on the immigration guys.


OK. So BA didn't check every fine detail on your ID. So either they just matched name or just didn't check the date. Or just missed it. They are human and we all make mistakes. Mind you, the bigger question is surely how, after the last few days of this experience, you could possibly forget that your EU ID had expired! As you say, "What a total Joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
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Old Nov 28, 18, 5:24 am
  #185  
 
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Originally Posted by gms View Post
OK. So BA didn't check every fine detail on your ID. So either they just matched name or just didn't check the date. Or just missed it. They are human and we all make mistakes. Mind you, the bigger question is surely how, after the last few days of this experience, you could possibly forget that your EU ID had expired! As you say, "What a total Joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
What OP should have done is accidently used his expired ID at Heathrow immigration and when he breezes through he can come back here and say "I told you so 😋" to everyone here who doubted he was right all along.
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Old Nov 28, 18, 5:26 am
  #186  
 
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Originally Posted by simons1 View Post
Otherwise I'm glad we got there in the end. There is no list of countries refusing to accept expired EU IDs that has Hungary on it. Exactly the point I made.


I am lost as to what you are trying to say... There is no common list for all E.U. countries detailing which documents are not accepted. Each country publishes its own requirements (or list, if you will). However, the list is of documents that are accepted for entry. If an expired ID is not on the list then we can make a logical conclusion that it is an unacceptable document.

For example, here is the list of accepted documents for the UK (all two of them)
https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control...ave-for-the-uk

You can enter the UK with either a valid passport or a national identity card issued by a EEA country.

For the purpose of our discussion we may safely assume that if an expired ID is not on the list of the accepted documents that means that it is not accepted. Does not that make sense? We don't know what documents or evidence the UK government will accept as 'other means' of proving that someone is an EAA national. The idea is to have a document from the only list that is available - that of accepted documents.

It is very easy to prepare a list of documents that Hungary does not accept. We just need to know the nationality of the person seeking entry. For example, if the traveller is a citizen of Germany, their expired (up to a year) ID won't be on the list of documents not accepted by Hungary, but if the traveller is a citizen of Latvia then their expired ID will be. You can prepare such a list yourself if you have time. Such a list, however, won't serve any purpose. I don't understand your preoccupation with it.

Last edited by Andriyko; Nov 28, 18 at 5:37 am
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Old Nov 28, 18, 5:48 am
  #187  
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Originally Posted by fomc View Post
The person looks at my boarding pass and EXPIRED EU ID for less than 1 second and let’s me through. What a total Joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Essentially this tells me that BA relies 100% on the immigration guys.


I'm surprised you're surprised. We all know that the priority is to get you on board and complete the turnaround process as quickly as possible. The airlines take a certain amount of risk on this by only having cursory checks, and they mitigate that by using API (which you provided when you left London, and also BUD), immigration control to ensure documents are in date and not stolen/forged when scanned, and performing a name check at the gate. If they'd read your passport instead, do you think they'd have got as far as looking at the expiry date? I'm sure half the time I present mine my finger partly obscures it, and I've never had anyone ask for a closer look.

However, as soon as the issue was pointed out to them they'd have been utterly mad not to take the time to investigate it. The risk factor went right off the scale at that point. The next time you tried to fly you weren't flagged and so underwent the usual lower level scrutiny.

Also, what I never understood is how come there’s no immigration control when exiting UK into EU but there is one at the exit of all EU countries into the UK?!?! I get that Britain is not in Schengen but why is exit from the UK into EU treated differently than entry into the UK from EU?
This is incredibly simplistic, and no doubt there are other criteria, but the UK has electronic border control when exiting (i.e. they know from your departure record from the airline/train company/ferry company that you've left). Other countries/airports may not. OTP is an example where no matter whether your destination is inside or outside the EU - and Romania is not a Schengen country - you go through a passport check. At AMS if you arrived from non-Schengen and remained outside it you wouldn't be checked. Both are European countries, but their exit procedures are markedly different.
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Old Nov 28, 18, 7:09 am
  #188  
 
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Originally Posted by Andriyko View Post
I am lost as to what you are trying to say.
In posts 159 and 160 it was stated there is a list of countries that do not accept expired ID cards (and therefore BA/Hungary immigration were at fault)
In post 162 I said this was incorrect, there is no such list (and that BA/Hungary immigration acted properly)
In post 177 you corrected me and said there was a list. I therefore asked you to direct us to it.

At that stage (post 181) you then dissembled and said you would not do my homework - well there is no homework to be done to prove that a list which does not exist does not exist. You also quoted back to me some text that I was aware of as I had already posted it many pages before.

So my point remains - there is no list of countries which do not accept expired EU IDs.

Originally Posted by Andriyko View Post
For the purpose of our discussion we may safely assume that if an expired ID is not on the list of the accepted documents that means that it is not accepted. Does not that make sense?
No, because the OP was admitted to Hungary by Hungarian immigration carrying only his expired EU ID. As he was allowed to do under EC directives he was able to back this up with other evidence ie an emailed copy of a passport held elsewhere.

Still the OP is now back, it appears he was allowed to board again using his expired ID. In which case had he just gone through the immigration the first time when the authorities agreed he could exit then the probability is it would not have been picked up until the UK Border who would almost certainly have allowed him entry.

For the sake of clarity I am not making a point about BA or Hungarian immigration so I think we can agree there is no need for us to 'spin' that bit. I am a touch surprised that BA allowed travel each way with sight of an expired document however it is of no relevance as they are not the final authority on immigration matters.
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Old Nov 28, 18, 7:16 am
  #189  
 
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there is no downside to telling us of one's nationality. OP ask for help but refuses to give one of the more important information. He simply keeps denying responsibility for his situation and insist others are at fault. Seems to have a DYKWIA attitude. He calls TA posters a bunch of amateurs and that those on FT the real deal yet the advise, and discussion, given on both threads are the same.
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Old Nov 28, 18, 7:35 am
  #190  
 
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Last edited by Andriyko; Nov 28, 18 at 7:46 am
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Old Nov 28, 18, 7:44 am
  #191  
 
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some contradiction on posters word.

he says- " When he said “im fine to let you go if BA is fine”, I should have told him to let me go to the board myself. But because he was the one that raised the issue, that obviously prompted BA to refuse boarding. (this he- was the exit immigration)

then he says " What a total Joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Essentially this tells me that BA relies 100% on the immigration guys "

If BA relies 100 on immigration guys then there was no need for immigrations to say that " I'm fine to let you go if BA is fine " Immigrations was fine to let you out of their country. They have no control if an airline should carry you with the documents you possess.

You listed 8 reasons why UK should let you in on your OP
Yes, UKBF can verify you if they want to.
No, you cannot get a temp. passport from your consulate because you can;t a birth certificate. But I dont' hear you ..... about your consulate.
But, using your arguments, they have it on their government electronic database about your birth certificate. Yet you only lambast BA and UKBF and not your embassy too.
Point is, none of these agencies have to go to great lengths to verify you. Otherwise everyone will just ask for that and entry/exit into a country could be means standing at immigration lines for hours or days. It is up to you to present the documents, not for them to dig it up.
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Old Nov 28, 18, 7:47 am
  #192  
 
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Last edited by simons1; Nov 28, 18 at 8:49 am
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Old Nov 28, 18, 8:07 am
  #193  
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Originally Posted by fomc View Post
NOT on purpose...
May I very gently suggest that a smidgen more attention to detail will get you a happier life and a happier wife? Otherwise any residual threat you could possibly pose to the UK's sovereignty and domestic stability will be vastly eclipsed by the difficulties you will present to your own wellbeing on your future travels.
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Old Nov 28, 18, 8:42 am
  #194  
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Originally Posted by fomc View Post
I show my boarding pass and actually my (guess what!!!!), Expired EU ID. NOT on purpose


I shall be a bit more direct than my esteemed previous poster. Come on now, you did this on purpose just to check what happened. Why not just be honest about it? Glad you made it back ok.
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Old Nov 28, 18, 8:56 am
  #195  
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The reply of the border agent when asked what would have happened had I been allowed by BA to board:

”we would have done some checks on our side and YES we would have let you in. At the same time, we would have also fined BA 2/3k (didn’t know exact figure), for letting you travel with expired doc, even with your entry granted. BA has a responsibility as airline to make sure passengers carry valid documents”

so, why would border agency give a fine to BA if BA wouldn’t have responsibility to check validity?!?! By the presence of the fine, you can logically infer that they do have that responsibility....else there would be no fine!

So shouldnt they bear some responsibility for letting me board in the first place in London? I understand they have the online system (that had my valid passport details stored...I travel only on the passport most timed), but they still need to check at the gate I think.

BA not checking my ID validity on the way back to London is definitely against the rules, as the Border agent confirmed.

he also confirmed they do give these pre-arrival authorisation checks to airline. Didn’t have time to ask specifics: who exactly answers the line.

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