Last edit by: lavajava
Key Information (thanks @corporate-wage-slave):
Original schedule
Thursday 1 November BA2036 (Operated by G-VIIR)
MCO dep 2120
LGW arr 1025 - Friday 2 November
Delay Reason: Aircraft Defects/Technical
Actual schedule
Saturday 3 November BA2036
MCO dep 0032 (was at some point intended to depart at 19.25 on Friday)
Diverted: JFK arr 0345 Saturday 3 November
----------
JFK dep 2038 Saturday 3 November
LGW arr 0645 Sunday 4 November
Delay: 45 hours 40 minutes late for those who were not re-routed on to other services.
The rescue aircraft G-STBF left LHR at 12:52 and landed in JFK 15:27
Diversion Information (thanks @Globaliser):
The aircraft left MCO just before 0100 on 3 November as BA9601. It got to about Charleston, made a U-turn, and then another one when it was back near Savannah, before continuing northbound and diverting to JFK. ExpertFlyer.com says "aircraft forced to return" and also seems to say for this flight that the diversion to JFK was for "aircraft defects".
Compensation Information:
This delay should be in scope for 600 Euro delay compensation plus applicable/reasonable expenses. Please follow the link to the EU261 Compensation thread that contains a useful Wiki section.
Original schedule
Thursday 1 November BA2036 (Operated by G-VIIR)
MCO dep 2120
LGW arr 1025 - Friday 2 November
Delay Reason: Aircraft Defects/Technical
Actual schedule
Saturday 3 November BA2036
MCO dep 0032 (was at some point intended to depart at 19.25 on Friday)
Diverted: JFK arr 0345 Saturday 3 November
----------
JFK dep 2038 Saturday 3 November
LGW arr 0645 Sunday 4 November
Delay: 45 hours 40 minutes late for those who were not re-routed on to other services.
The rescue aircraft G-STBF left LHR at 12:52 and landed in JFK 15:27
Diversion Information (thanks @Globaliser):
The aircraft left MCO just before 0100 on 3 November as BA9601. It got to about Charleston, made a U-turn, and then another one when it was back near Savannah, before continuing northbound and diverting to JFK. ExpertFlyer.com says "aircraft forced to return" and also seems to say for this flight that the diversion to JFK was for "aircraft defects".
Compensation Information:
This delay should be in scope for 600 Euro delay compensation plus applicable/reasonable expenses. Please follow the link to the EU261 Compensation thread that contains a useful Wiki section.
Flight From Hell [BA2036 MCO-LGW delayed then diverted to JFK]
#121
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: JER
Programs: BA Gold/OWE, several MUCCI, and assorted Pensions!
Posts: 32,140
My only major IRROPS in 2016 (LGW-KIN) there was NO direct EC261 information provided to pax, although some EC261 letters were left on the reception desk at the LGW Sofitel where we were put up overnight ... if you knew they were there in the first place. What I was given was the attached letter, with the small-print footnote which I guess covers BA's backside. Fortunately, thanks to FT, I knew what do do in respect of EC261 anyway, but I doubt the majority of pax did or knew how much it was going to be worth!
An “Interesting” Journey to Jamaica with BA (JER-LGW-KIN)
An “Interesting” Journey to Jamaica with BA (JER-LGW-KIN)
#122
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London
Programs: Mucci. Nothing else matters.
Posts: 38,644
Could I draft the letters better? I would like to think so - I am a lawyer after all. Do the letters do the job that they need to do? No doubt a sizeable contingent on FT would think that BA's letters don't, even though an identically-worded letter handed out by some other airline would be perfectly adequate. Does it stop passengers from complaining that they were told nothing? Of course not. Would those passengers be accurate in their complaints, and should we immediately take their complaints at face value whilst automatically rejecting everything that BA says? Again, a sizeable contingent on FT would probably still think so. After all, if you start with the mindset that BA is "a thieving money-grabbing for-profit company", you're probably unlikely ever to hear let alone listen.
Last edited by Globaliser; Nov 6, 2018 at 4:37 am
#123
Original Poster
Join Date: Jul 2016
Location: Cornwall
Posts: 774
It seems I am the OP in this thread, mainly due to my posting in the EU Compensation Thread. Fantastic to have @Globaliser to respond to my query and even follow up the next day with other information I didn't ask for. Thanks also to the helpful replies from @corporate-wage-slave to have the posts merged, and for providing all the relevant information around timings and future advice.
Not sure I would have picked the thread title myself, as I was not on the flight.
If anyone is interested, this is a copy of the letter provided by BA. I personally think it's clear enough.
I agree with many that this seemed to be one issue on top of another (i.e. rare), with no ideal outcomes around rerouting etc. I looked at the time of family members being stuck in MCO at their options which were in the region of 20-30 hour trips. Could BA have done a better job around communication? Probably however I imagine this to be a tough situation surrounded by many pax who probably need to vent. It was nice to be able to provide the telephone details for BA holidays as they were far more helpful with the required information > something I will be adding to my own preparation list.
Thinking it might be useful to convert this into a Wiki Thread with all the details around the issue/compensation etc as it might be tricky for newbies to find.
Stay cool
#124
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: UK
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 2,422
I have been disrupted a number of times while flying with BA and I have never seen this letter, not sure why this isn't always given out. Passengers generally aren't worried about compensation in the thick of an IRROP so getting the duty of care rights clear is more important.
#125
Ambassador: Emirates Airlines
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 18,600
Ł25 a day on meals doesn't get you very far in NYC.
Where's the mention of €600 compensation that the passengers may be entitled to?
#126
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Munich, Algarve, Sussex or S.F Bay Area
Programs: Mucci, BA Gold, A3*Gold, AA Plat, HH Gold, IHG Plat Amb, Marriott Plat
Posts: 4,158
I also have been on the receiving end of BA's incompetence handling IRROPS and was never handed that letter. Perhaps it is new and they are also realising they need to do more, and indeed the last problem I had was handled much better than previously.
However, I do still find that letter misleading. I read it as implying that EU261 sets those monetary limits on compensation of hotels and expenses. This is plainly incorrect. If BA wish us to only spend a maximum of GBP 200 on a hotel then they should jolly well book it themselves to ensure adherence to their guidelines. I suspect it is when they run out of rooms that these letters are issued and those are occasions where most likely room prices have already risen to which, depending on your point of disruption, may well be above the "limit".
LHR, NYC, SFO, TOK and even FRA can be hard to find rooms under those limits, especially for airport hotels and when disruption is widespread.
It must also be said, that many passengers may not have the financial resources to pay these expenses and reclaim them and that alone may influence their decision to sleep on airport floors. BA deserve the criticism they are receiving for this, even though the British media is at it's usual game.
However, I do still find that letter misleading. I read it as implying that EU261 sets those monetary limits on compensation of hotels and expenses. This is plainly incorrect. If BA wish us to only spend a maximum of GBP 200 on a hotel then they should jolly well book it themselves to ensure adherence to their guidelines. I suspect it is when they run out of rooms that these letters are issued and those are occasions where most likely room prices have already risen to which, depending on your point of disruption, may well be above the "limit".
LHR, NYC, SFO, TOK and even FRA can be hard to find rooms under those limits, especially for airport hotels and when disruption is widespread.
It must also be said, that many passengers may not have the financial resources to pay these expenses and reclaim them and that alone may influence their decision to sleep on airport floors. BA deserve the criticism they are receiving for this, even though the British media is at it's usual game.
#127
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
Is the one member of staff on duty at JFK at 1.30 am supposed make the decision on behalf of BA that everyone on the flight is without doubt entitled to €600 compensation, and immediately to put that into the letter?
Is it really not enough to say "You may be entitled to compensation, and this is how to claim it?" I know that we lawyers are devious and dishonest creatures, but I'm sure that we can't be alone in being able to see that from the footnote to the letter. And it's not like the EK letter promises anything more, full of verbiage though it is.
Is it really not enough to say "You may be entitled to compensation, and this is how to claim it?" I know that we lawyers are devious and dishonest creatures, but I'm sure that we can't be alone in being able to see that from the footnote to the letter. And it's not like the EK letter promises anything more, full of verbiage though it is.
And as far as the person at JFK was concerned, well the flight was already a day late by the time it left Orlando so surely some thought would have been given to the circumstances? And in any case JFK people had over 2 hours notice of the diversion to get the messaging sorted, it really doesn't need Einstein to address that.
Honestly as defences go this one is pretty thin. And people wonder why airlines have the same levels of trust as the banks and utilities when it comes to doing the right thing.
#128
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: UK
Programs: Lemonia. Best Greek ever.
Posts: 2,267
I wish someone on here had real clout with BA.
That letter about "rights" is disgraceful.
BA has its own expenses guidelines that have nothing whatsoever to do with any EU law, and which are useless for NYC.
The letter is tantamount to a deliberate lie.
We are not all global air-warriors with a ton of experience. The letter is a clear attempt to delude people.
That letter about "rights" is disgraceful.
BA has its own expenses guidelines that have nothing whatsoever to do with any EU law, and which are useless for NYC.
The letter is tantamount to a deliberate lie.
We are not all global air-warriors with a ton of experience. The letter is a clear attempt to delude people.
#129
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London
Programs: Mucci. Nothing else matters.
Posts: 38,644
And as far as the person at JFK was concerned, well the flight was already a day late by the time it left Orlando so surely some thought would have been given to the circumstances? And in any case JFK people had over 2 hours notice of the diversion to get the messaging sorted, it really doesn't need Einstein to address that.
And the duration of the earlier delay seems irrelevant for the JFK diversion messaging; until the aircraft developed that fault en route, everyone on the aircraft was expecting next to land at LGW.
#131
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
If I've got the timeline correct, it was something like 0130L when the aircraft diverted to JFK, and something like 0330L when it landed. Is that in the middle of the working day for BA's JFK station, according to FT?
And the duration of the earlier delay seems irrelevant for the JFK diversion messaging; until the aircraft developed that fault en route, everyone on the aircraft was expecting next to land at LGW.
And the duration of the earlier delay seems irrelevant for the JFK diversion messaging; until the aircraft developed that fault en route, everyone on the aircraft was expecting next to land at LGW.
BA also has route and operations planning people, when it became clear (from the unique flight number) that the delayed flight was diverted I would have expected people to be saying "this is going to go down like a lead balloon so we need to pull out the stops here" not mounting the usual cost saving operation.
#132
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jan 2009
Programs: Battleaxe Alliance
Posts: 22,127
Really, people need to be able to either self-insure properly, or have a comprehensive insurance before travelling. What would they do if a serious disruption like the volcanic ash hits and they cannot afford the accommodation, they cannot fly out, they have to take unpaid leave, and they have no EU261 coverage?
We need to be responsible here a bit.
On a separate matter, FRA has corridor(s) with portable beds, I believe after they had issues with procuring accommodation during one of the snow chaos.
#133
Ambassador: Emirates Airlines
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 18,600
Really, people need to be able to either self-insure properly, or have a comprehensive insurance before travelling. What would they do if a serious disruption like the volcanic ash hits and they cannot afford the accommodation, they cannot fly out, they have to take unpaid leave, and they have no EU261 coverage?
We need to be responsible here a bit.
We need to be responsible here a bit.
#134
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jan 2009
Programs: Battleaxe Alliance
Posts: 22,127
Just because someone says people should be prepared to provide for themselves, it does not mean they're trying to defend BA.
I think it may be a little difficult to say that it is sensible not to either self-insure or have insurance. It may be that it's the railway failure that makes someone miss their flight. No EU261 would apply, of course. I am talking generally about being sensible about travelling and providing for oneself in response to someone's post about some people choosing to sleep on the floor due to lack of funds.
#135
Ambassador: Emirates Airlines
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 18,600