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Flight From Hell [BA2036 MCO-LGW delayed then diverted to JFK]

Flight From Hell [BA2036 MCO-LGW delayed then diverted to JFK]

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Old Nov 5, 18, 9:27 pm   -   Wikipost
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Last edit by: lavajava
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Key Information (thanks @corporate-wage-slave):

Original schedule

Thursday 1 November BA2036 (Operated by G-VIIR)
MCO dep 2120
LGW arr 1025 - Friday 2 November

Delay Reason: Aircraft Defects/Technical

Actual schedule
Saturday 3 November BA2036
MCO dep 0032 (was at some point intended to depart at 19.25 on Friday)
Diverted: JFK arr 0345 Saturday 3 November
----------
JFK dep 2038 Saturday 3 November
LGW arr 0645 Sunday 4 November

Delay: 45 hours 40 minutes late for those who were not re-routed on to other services.
The rescue aircraft G-STBF left LHR at 12:52 and landed in JFK 15:27

Diversion Information (thanks @Globaliser):

The aircraft left MCO just before 0100 on 3 November as BA9601. It got to about Charleston, made a U-turn, and then another one when it was back near Savannah, before continuing northbound and diverting to JFK. ExpertFlyer.com says "aircraft forced to return" and also seems to say for this flight that the diversion to JFK was for "aircraft defects".

Compensation Information:

This delay should be in scope for 600 Euro delay compensation plus applicable/reasonable expenses. Please follow the link to the EU261 Compensation thread that contains a useful Wiki section.
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Old Nov 5, 18, 7:56 pm
  #106  
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Originally Posted by skywardhunter View Post
If it was ec261.com it'd still be unreasonable.
Perhaps ask someone who has a smartphone, tablet or laptop to do it for you (not you personally but whoever finds it difficult)?

There are more of those devices around than most people would even want, given the proportion who use facetime etc. without the headsets and annoy them?

Or simply ask someone what it is about?

This is at least not as bad as what EK did to passengers when they diverted from LHR to CDG during one of the snow chaos and they told everyone to make their own way to LHR, with zero assistance (financial or practical) in any case after one night in a hotel. They of course weren't subject to EU261. I know they did that not just to Y but to all the cabin including F as I was with a flock of them from all cabins from the flight at Gare du Nord), and told them that they would have to pay for everything themselves. I paid to get hot drinks and what food there was on severely disrupted Eurostar service for some of those passengers who couldn't afford it after paying the Eurostar Standard Premier fare because the standard class was full. Also one of the ladies in the queue, also an EK passenger, was heavily pregnant and I gave her the warming pads I had because clearly standing in a huge queue at a freezing cold station was not a good thing for her. Eventually we got the station staff to find her chair so that she could sit down. At least, it doesn't sound like those BA passengers were 'abandoned' as such.

Last edited by LTN Phobia; Nov 5, 18 at 8:11 pm
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Old Nov 5, 18, 7:57 pm
  #107  
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Originally Posted by LTN Phobia View Post
It's not exactly an onerous URL though.
As far as an URL to a specific page goes, it's a rather simple one.



Herein lies the problem with auto-rebooking an attempting to notify people. How do you notify them quickly if they don't have a local SIM card, data roaming switched off, they've walked off from the gate area, and they don't know how to connect to Wifi or hadn't thought of it? Calling them back to the gate to inform them, or keeping them penned in until it's all done is, but then you start to get complaints too.

---
As a general comment and not specifically in reply to Skywardhunter, I take the view that things do go wrong when travelling.

Cars may break down and may cause you to miss your flight. Aeroplanes may break down and put you in a bit of a mess. Bad weather may hit. We need to be prepared to take it, and deal with it, and not be so reliant on others to deal with it for us (even if that is their responsibility, it is often in our own interest to have some initiatives, although with initiatives come accountability and we need to be accountable for the choice we make there).

It may sound incredibly harsh but if we don't have a degree of self-sufficiency, being a bit of street-wise, and have a reasonable dose of pragmatism etc. to deal with those things that are thrown at us without getting highly emotional and distressed (proviso: this comment is only relevant in the absence of an extenuating circumstance), we should perhaps travel with someone who do, or deem ourselves not ready to travel yet.
I've not made any comment in auto rebooking. It depends on the circumstance. I agree on self sufficiency. But I also know it's not gonna happen. I run an IT company am reminded daily how poor people are at the most basic tasks that we take for granted. My argument is simply that they should print the info, if they can print a URL why can't they just print the contents of the URL/a guide to the regulations. The only real answer is that they hope people miss it and don't claim.

Last edited by skywardhunter; Nov 5, 18 at 8:26 pm
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Old Nov 5, 18, 8:07 pm
  #108  
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Originally Posted by skywardhunter View Post
I've not made any comment in auto rebooking.
I know you didn't - it was someone else who made the comment about it, but your comment about roaming/sim/wifi etc. indicated the potential (or potentially rather substantial) problem with auto-rebooking.
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Old Nov 6, 18, 1:10 am
  #109  
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Originally Posted by LTN Phobia View Post
This is at least not as bad as what EK did to passengers when they diverted from LHR to CDG during one of the snow chaos and they told everyone to make their own way to LHR, with zero assistance (financial or practical) in any case after one night in a hotel.
Which is exactly what BA did to me and hundreds of other during the snow of 2010. Diverted from IAH to DUB and left to fend for ourselves (without any hotels). That's after a 5 hour delay on take-off and then being lied to by the crew saying that I couldn't get off (hand bags only) as were weren't connected to an airbridge (just as a yellow bibbed member of the ground staff appeared through the door). Stuck on the plane for another 2.5 hours with the captain saying they were waiting for LHR to re-open (which it didn't for the next 3 days IIRC).

I rebooked myself DUB-MAN on IE. Of course, BA denied any responsibility and refused to refund the fare.
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Old Nov 6, 18, 1:28 am
  #110  
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Originally Posted by LTN Phobia View Post
Perhaps ask someone who has a smartphone, tablet or laptop to do it for you (not you personally but whoever finds it difficult)?

There are more of those devices around than most people would even want, given the proportion who use facetime etc. without the headsets and annoy them?

Or simply ask someone what it is about?

This is at least not as bad as what EK did to passengers when they diverted from LHR to CDG during one of the snow chaos and they told everyone to make their own way to LHR, with zero assistance (financial or practical) in any case after one night in a hotel. They of course weren't subject to EU261. I know they did that not just to Y but to all the cabin including F as I was with a flock of them from all cabins from the flight at Gare du Nord), and told them that they would have to pay for everything themselves. I paid to get hot drinks and what food there was on severely disrupted Eurostar service for some of those passengers who couldn't afford it after paying the Eurostar Standard Premier fare because the standard class was full. Also one of the ladies in the queue, also an EK passenger, was heavily pregnant and I gave her the warming pads I had because clearly standing in a huge queue at a freezing cold station was not a good thing for her. Eventually we got the station staff to find her chair so that she could sit down. At least, it doesn't sound like those BA passengers were 'abandoned' as such.
Struggling to keep up with all your edits in your posts, only just saw the EK story. Can't speak for 2010 but I know for a fact EK hand out printed EC261 notices with a lot of detail and a bullet point breakdown of the pax' options, I've seen photos of the printed notice handed to pax in such a case (I wasn't affected or present myself, the photo was shared by the pax affected).

https://cdn.ek.aero/downloads/ek/pdfs/rules-and-notices/EU-Delay-Notice-2018.pdf

This isn't a URL one is expected to type in, because thankfully EK still has budget for printers and paper.
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Old Nov 6, 18, 1:34 am
  #111  
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Originally Posted by skywardhunter View Post
Struggling to keep up with all your edits in your posts, only just saw the EK story. Can't speak for 2010 but I know for a fact EK hand out printed EC261 notices with a lot of detail and a bullet point breakdown of the pax' options, I've seen photos of the printed notice handed to pax in such a case (I wasn't affected or present myself, the photo was shared by the pax affected).

https://cdn.ek.aero/downloads/ek/pdf...otice-2018.pdf

This isn't a URL one is expected to type in, because thankfully EK still has budget for printers and paper.
I recall our fellow EK ambassador @m3red posting the same or similar sheet that was handed out to some of his family when their MAN-DXB flight was delayed heavily last year.
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Old Nov 6, 18, 1:48 am
  #112  
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Originally Posted by DYKWIA View Post
I recall our fellow EK ambassador @m3red posting the same or similar sheet that was handed out to some of his family when their MAN-DXB flight was delayed heavily last year.
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Old Nov 6, 18, 1:58 am
  #113  
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BA aren’t great at informing pax of their rights at outstations.

My DME-LHR flight in July was cancelled due to a technical issue. Stranded at the airport for 12.5 hours until the next available flight and not once from 06:00hrs when the flight was delayed, then cancelled 45 minutes later, was there a mention of EC261 from BA. Complete and utter shambles of a day by BA Ground ops at DME. No letter and very poor flow of information.

A small group of us got chatting through the course of the day and not one of them had been aware of EC261 (until I informed them).

S

Last edited by Saltire74; Nov 6, 18 at 2:05 am
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Old Nov 6, 18, 2:14 am
  #114  
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Originally Posted by skywardhunter View Post

This isn't a URL one is expected to type in, because thankfully EK still has budget for printers and paper.
Those that I met were from DXB so EU261 did not apply but they were literally dumped in CDG without anything at all, which I thought was a bit off, even in the absence of the EU261 coverage (and simply being told that they had cover their own expenses and make their own way to LHR, even those who were in a vulnerable state like a heavily pregnant lady by herself).

Come to think of it, A3 did the same when a flight got cancelled. There was nothing about the EU261, rebooking window was restricted to 2 days (during which they had absolutely zero availability - grossly inappropriate), and then they refused the legitimate claim for expenses (again inappropriate).

QF even charged me for changing the flight after they cancelled the flight and eventually agreed to refund it after an argument, and never did (I have not made a revenue booking for international flights with them ever since).

I don't think BA, A3, EK, or anyone else that might have been mentioned in this thread so far for that matter, always (or even generally) handle things particularly well when it comes to disruptions at all times.

The only airlines that I personally had everything done right for me so far was surprisingly LH with the reputation for being difficult with EU261, and BA who invariably paid up within a couple of working days, even over Christmas, so I guess everyone's experience varies.
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Old Nov 6, 18, 2:43 am
  #115  
 
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As is the case so often, it boils down to communication difficulties at outstations. And we read this time and time again (and not limited to BA, by the way).

Another example: Mrs t (my wife) was on a AMS/LGW BA flight in early October. Supposed to depart at 19:30 or thereabouts. When she got to the gate (early) around 18:45, she was informed that there was a delay until 20:30. HBO passengers were offered to be re-booked on the LCY flight, but as she had checked luggage she had to stay put. After that the BA ground crew left the scene. Around 22:00 the remaining passengers were offered vouchers for refreshments but by this time there was only one food outlet open at AMS and that was a 20 min walk away (we all know how far D22-26 are away from civilisation) and (as the screens still promised a 20:30 departure, now 90 minutes in the past) mrs t was a bit apprehensive about taking that walk. As the incoming flight had not yet appeared at the gate, I told her (we were in frequent contact) not to worry, especially as I had now seen on Flightradar24 that the incoming flight had not left LGW yet! Not a word from BA staff about any expected departure time. The remaining passengers basically got more information from myself through my wife then from the carrier. And I was in CPT, some 9500 KM away!
In the end the flight departed around midnight, without any hint given by BA that there might be a case for compensation. Of course we submitted the claim. And got no response. A month later we followed up, to be told that the claim was denied as she had been rebooked on the LCY flight which had been less than 3 hours late so no compensation payable. A rather strongly worded objection to this response finally secured the €250 payout a few days later.
I can only think that BA are trying to avoid paying compensation by non-communication and subterfuge.
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Old Nov 6, 18, 2:51 am
  #116  
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Originally Posted by skywardhunter View Post
1. You expect pax, many who may not be IT-literate, older, stressed, anxious and/or exhausted to notice that the long URL in the smaller font in the footer is contains the phrase "euclaim" in between slashes and full stops and .com's and aspx's and surmise they have rights as citizens of the European Union that the airline is obliged to inform them of and they have a right to be compensated financially
Oh, you're talking about compensation?

Let me see if I've got this right: you think that pax who are not IT-literate, or may be older, stressed, anxious or exhausted, who have just landed at an airport where they did not expect to be, at about 4.00 am local time, will be thinking then and there about claiming cash compensation? And that that's what the URL is inadequate for? And it can't wait until they've got back to the UK or to their homes?

Incidentally, I must apologise for having overlooked the bit in 261/2004 that says that rights to claim are limited to citizens of the European Union.
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Old Nov 6, 18, 3:14 am
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Originally Posted by Globaliser View Post
Oh, you're talking about compensation?

Let me see if I've got this right: you think that pax who are not IT-literate, or may be older, stressed, anxious or exhausted, who have just landed at an airport where they did not expect to be, at about 4.00 am local time, will be thinking then and there about claiming cash compensation? And that that's what the URL is inadequate for? And it can't wait until they've got back to the UK or to their homes?

Incidentally, I must apologise for having overlooked the bit in 261/2004 that says that rights to claim are limited to citizens of the European Union.
But what is to stop airlines just being open and honest instead of trying to bury something in a link in the footnote to a letter?

Just be up front about it and say in simple english "you are entitled to €600 compensation for the inconvenience we have caused.....this is how you claim it".
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Old Nov 6, 18, 3:34 am
  #118  
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Originally Posted by simons1 View Post
Just be up front about it and say in simple english "you are entitled to €600 compensation for the inconvenience we have caused.....this is how you claim it".
Is the one member of staff on duty at JFK at 1.30 am supposed make the decision on behalf of BA that everyone on the flight is without doubt entitled to €600 compensation, and immediately to put that into the letter?

Is it really not enough to say "You may be entitled to compensation, and this is how to claim it?" I know that we lawyers are devious and dishonest creatures, but I'm sure that we can't be alone in being able to see that from the footnote to the letter. And it's not like the EK letter promises anything more, full of verbiage though it is.
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Old Nov 6, 18, 3:43 am
  #119  
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Originally Posted by Globaliser View Post
Is the one member of staff on duty at JFK at 1.30 am supposed make the decision on behalf of BA that everyone on the flight is without doubt entitled to €600 compensation, and immediately to put that into the letter?

Is it really not enough to say "You may be entitled to compensation, and this is how to claim it?" I know that we lawyers are devious and dishonest creatures, but I'm sure that we can't be alone in being able to see that from the footnote to the letter. And it's not like the EK letter promises anything more, full of verbiage though it is.
Who said anything about the ground staff making promises. It's about informing pax of their rights and that they "may" be entitled to compensation, but also other aspects of EC261, such as rerouting and duty of care. You can keep apologising for BA here but they screwed this one up royally, and that being said it's irrelevant what other airlines do ultimately, whether EK, CX, LH etc handle it better or not doesn't change the fact that BA handled it horribly.

Keep digging.
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Old Nov 6, 18, 3:47 am
  #120  
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Originally Posted by Globaliser View Post
Is the one member of staff on duty at JFK at 1.30 am supposed make the decision on behalf of BA that everyone on the flight is without doubt entitled to €600 compensation, and immediately to put that into the letter?
Oh come on... all they needed to do was hand out a letter stating the EC261 options. Just look at the EK letter linked above, it's full of "you may be entitled" rather than admitting guilt over anything.
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