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Flight From Hell [BA2036 MCO-LGW delayed then diverted to JFK]

Flight From Hell [BA2036 MCO-LGW delayed then diverted to JFK]

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Old Nov 5, 18, 9:27 pm   -   Wikipost
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Last edit by: lavajava
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Key Information (thanks @corporate-wage-slave):

Original schedule

Thursday 1 November BA2036 (Operated by G-VIIR)
MCO dep 2120
LGW arr 1025 - Friday 2 November

Delay Reason: Aircraft Defects/Technical

Actual schedule
Saturday 3 November BA2036
MCO dep 0032 (was at some point intended to depart at 19.25 on Friday)
Diverted: JFK arr 0345 Saturday 3 November
----------
JFK dep 2038 Saturday 3 November
LGW arr 0645 Sunday 4 November

Delay: 45 hours 40 minutes late for those who were not re-routed on to other services.
The rescue aircraft G-STBF left LHR at 12:52 and landed in JFK 15:27

Diversion Information (thanks @Globaliser):

The aircraft left MCO just before 0100 on 3 November as BA9601. It got to about Charleston, made a U-turn, and then another one when it was back near Savannah, before continuing northbound and diverting to JFK. ExpertFlyer.com says "aircraft forced to return" and also seems to say for this flight that the diversion to JFK was for "aircraft defects".

Compensation Information:

This delay should be in scope for 600 Euro delay compensation plus applicable/reasonable expenses. Please follow the link to the EU261 Compensation thread that contains a useful Wiki section.
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Old Nov 5, 18, 11:58 am
  #91  
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Originally Posted by skywardhunter View Post
​​​​​​
no, pretty sure they are obliged to specifically inform pax once a disruption occurs based on the wording of the regulations shared by another member upthread
The CAA a few years ago called in the airlines about this, and reached an agreement that their responsibilities to "provide" information would be discharged in this area provided a note is communicated to passengers at check-in, whether online or in person. Consequently BA and other airlines changed the layout of OLCI to make it clear than EC261 consumer protections exist. In the case of BA this notification comes up at OLCI, on the App, at the check-in desks - on the sign about not carrying weapons and lithium batteries, which doubtless everyone checks - and at most departure gates, some non EU airports don't have them. There is also a section on EC261 on BA.com plus a claim area (BA.com/delay). What I am hoping will happen (but I have no information whether it will or not) is that the pro-active call from Customer Relations mentioned in the second letter given to passengers would include starting their EC261 claim process, otherwise I can see what the CR call could do other than to apologise again.


There are now similar notes at easyJet, Jet2 and Ryanair's versions of OLCI. Now just because the CAA is OK with this doesn't necessarily make it watertight, but I am not aware of any case where information failures - or allegations of failure - has had any impact.
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Old Nov 5, 18, 12:19 pm
  #92  
 
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Originally Posted by cosmo74 View Post
A story in The Sun shows various letters which were given to passengers - all offer apologies for the delay and inconvenience, not one mentions EU261. I think that shows BA in its true colours.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/765455...hday-on-plane/
Those photos either deliberately or accidentally cut off the small print at the bottom which does include a bit of compensation information. I think BA should make really clear statements on compensation and duty of care for incidents like these, especially to say something like "if you can make your own hotel arrangements we will reimburse $xxx per person". That at least gets those who are able to go online and find something out of the way and the staff can focus their obviously limited resources on others who cannot.

Photos of kids sleeping on floors doesn't make for good PR no matter how much spin you put on it.


If you click through to the image on twitter the compensation text is visible.
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Old Nov 5, 18, 12:28 pm
  #93  
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Originally Posted by Steve_ZA View Post
Those photos either deliberately or accidentally cut off the small print at the bottom which does include a bit of compensation information. I think BA should make really clear statements on compensation and duty of care for incidents like these, especially to say something like "if you can make your own hotel arrangements we will reimburse $xxx per person". That at least gets those who are able to go online and find something out of the way and the staff can focus their obviously limited resources on others who cannot.

Photos of kids sleeping on floors doesn't make for good PR no matter how much spin you put on it.

https://twitter.com/Craig_Brown0/sta...54338712485889

If you click through to the image on twitter the compensation text is visible.
I see a reference to a very long URL that would be cumbersome for many, especially those less IT literate, to type, most likely having just their phones available. This is not acceptable (in my personal view) notice of the pax rights and rules.
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Old Nov 5, 18, 1:26 pm
  #94  
 
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Surely if you wanted to be open and transparent you would say something like "compensation of Eur600 per traveller will be paid in like with EU directives"?

Then it wouldn't be ambiguous or create some impression of trying to avoid responsibilities.

Or even hand out some pre-paid cards....after all neither Orlando nor New York are backwaters where BA doesn't have regular service.
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Old Nov 5, 18, 1:44 pm
  #95  
 
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What precautions can someone take if stuck in this situation?
Genuine questions as I'm not a frequent flyer but interested in the story.
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Old Nov 5, 18, 1:53 pm
  #96  
 
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Originally Posted by Voltron86 View Post
What precautions can someone take if stuck in this situation?
Genuine questions as I'm not a frequent flyer but interested in the story.
I’d say not much in advance other than know your rights or what an airline can/should do in those circumstances, a list of the airline’s telephone numbers open in any time zone at any point in time. And of course post your problem on here, live !
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Old Nov 5, 18, 2:04 pm
  #97  
 
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Surely these whiners had travel insurance?
Or sort your own hotel out and re charge BA.
seems we have a generation who can’t actually process and take steps to look after tgemselves
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Old Nov 5, 18, 2:17 pm
  #98  
 
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Auto rebooking was mentioned above, but how do you communicate that to 250 people on a mainly leisure route? Most won’t have a BA app and are likely to have their mobiles turned off due to roaming charges so the chances are by the time they’ve queued up and been told their new flight may well have gone without them.
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Old Nov 5, 18, 3:29 pm
  #99  
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Originally Posted by skywardhunter View Post
... I am much more inclined to believe pax than a thieving money-grabbing for-profit company
Originally Posted by skywardhunter View Post
​​​​​​The letters published do not indicate any type of rights, whether EU or otherwise.
Originally Posted by skywardhunter View Post
I see a reference to a very long URL that would be cumbersome for many, especially those less IT literate, to type, most likely having just their phones available. This is not acceptable (in my personal view) notice of the pax rights and rules.
So are you still going to believe the pax statements in preference to the photographic evidence that some information about "compensation and/or assistance" was made available?

And would you now agree that the part of the URL that says "euclaim" might just give a teensy weensy hint of the origin of their rights?

And if hypothetically BA had handed out the A4-folded-into-three glossy leaflet to every passenger, with the same URL printed in big letters in it, would that still have left you dissatisfied on the basis that no passenger should have to suffer the indignity of having to type in a URL?
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Old Nov 5, 18, 3:32 pm
  #100  
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Originally Posted by Steve_ZA View Post
I think BA should make really clear statements on compensation and duty of care for incidents like these, especially to say something like "if you can make your own hotel arrangements we will reimburse $xxx per person".
Before this story hit the papers, and was just another non-hysterical real-time query here on FT, someone who had family members on board the flight posted this:-
Originally Posted by lavajava View Post
... and yes having had messages this morning from the family members they were stuck in New York and there were no hotels due to the Marathon. Seems they got the standard piece of paper to say up to £200 on hotel, 2 calls etc.
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Old Nov 5, 18, 3:36 pm
  #101  
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Originally Posted by Voltron86 View Post
What precautions can someone take if stuck in this situation?
Genuine questions as I'm not a frequent flyer but interested in the story.
Welcome to Flyertalk and welcome to the BA forum Voltron86, it's good to see you here and I hope we will see more of you.

Here are a random set of "precautions" off the top of my head
- knowing when to give up with a service and then who to contact to re-route. This would be the Contact Centres if looking to travel on BA or other Joint Business Airlines (which is pretty much all you would need in this situation); or prevailing yourself on airport staff if the best option was an alternative airline. Some passengers on this service did rebook themselves off the aircraft rather than persist with the replacement services.
- Listen carefully to crew announcements and note them down for later reference.
- being familiar and up to date with the BA App. This has improved of late in terms of allowing self rebooking, however it still has long standing bugs relating to accepting or rejecting alternative flight suggestions.
- Booking your own hotel and transport as soon as you know your flight is cancelled. Particularly being a Hand Baggage Only passenger I wouldn't want to wait until baggage is returned and authorised for those with checked bags - and only then heading to a coach for the hotel.
- Which means a few useful Apps on your phone for Hilton, IHG, Accor, Marriott groups of hotels. Plus Uber (Grab in Asia)
- Have a clutch of 1 dollar bills available, these can be used for tips all over the world.
- Not worrying too much about running up a hotel bill, ideally keeping it sensible and well below £200 a night
- Having Skype as an App on your phone so you can make long calls without too much cost
- An external charger for your phone in hand baggage.
- Have at least a few days medicine in your hand baggage, and a few "just in case", for me that's paracetemol, Vicks, throat lozenges, anti-acid and contact lenses.
- photo all claimable receipts
- have a decent roaming package on your phone
- consider contacting your insurers (do you have their number to hand) though usually this area can be handled after the event
- Knowing about ba.com/delay and the generalities of EC261 (there's a thread in the Dashboard).
- Keeping USA / Canada ESTA / ETA (etc) valid
- Knowing whether it really is essential to travel immediately - can it wait a few days until the panic is over?
- Reaching out on Flyertalk in the middle of difficulties - there is almost always at least one expert watching this site 24/7
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Old Nov 5, 18, 3:43 pm
  #102  
 
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In modern times, there can be a good amount of information exchange between cabin crew and Operations, even while the plane is in the sky. Granted, it's not as easy as the purser rattling off a list of connecting gates for passenger destinations as a plane goes from runway to gate following a 20-30 minute departure delay, but the getting the rebooking info from ground to sky after it's been compiled it the 'easy' part compared to the rebooking process itself.

There will always be passengers that need some hand-holding for various reasons. But the more self-sufficient people you can move to mobile use (and c'mon, you can't have a cabin crew make an announcement for those people who have the app to turn their phones on and check it for new flight information at wheels down? And if you're doing a big expensive international trip costing thousands, you can't spend an extra pound or two on roaming charges to check for flight information?) the more resources you can devote to people who need more help.

I'd say that providing a solution that helps 50% of the passengers, leaving 50% to track down that elusive unicorn that is the outstation GA is preferable to a status quo where 100% of the passengers find themselves on the unicorn hunt
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Old Nov 5, 18, 6:55 pm
  #103  
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Originally Posted by Globaliser View Post
So are you still going to believe the pax statements in preference to the photographic evidence that some information about "compensation and/or assistance" was made available?

And would you now agree that the part of the URL that says "euclaim" might just give a teensy weensy hint of the origin of their rights?

And if hypothetically BA had handed out the A4-folded-into-three glossy leaflet to every passenger, with the same URL printed in big letters in it, would that still have left you dissatisfied on the basis that no passenger should have to suffer the indignity of having to type in a URL?
Yeah, you've missed the point entirely.

1. You expect pax, many who may not be IT-literate, older, stressed, anxious and/or exhausted to notice that the long URL in the smaller font in the footer is contains the phrase "euclaim" in between slashes and full stops and .com's and aspx's and surmise they have rights as citizens of the European Union that the airline is obliged to inform them of and they have a right to be compensated financially
2. Many pax on holiday may not have purchased a local SIM card, may not have WiFi or data roaming available or the presence of mind to connect to the airport WiFi, it available (and if not limited by time), thus their ability to be informed by their rights (which already is requiring them to perform manual steps of their own by typing in a long URL on a phone most likely) is further curtailed
3. Though the size and placement is part of the problem providing it in large glossy print would make no difference. There should be printed letters or brochures available to hand out to pax detailing (at least in headlines) their rights and the airline's obligations - this is a legal requirement. I would think that no EU court would find the URL sifficisuf (or consumer-friendly). But the British have ensured they won't have to deal with silly EU courts in future so we'll never know, I guess
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Old Nov 5, 18, 7:34 pm
  #104  
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Originally Posted by skywardhunter View Post
Aside from the fact that the letter doesn't reference EC261 or European legislation in any way, or that it is unreasonable to expect pax to type in a URL hidden in the fine print of a form letter, or that you totally missed the joke in the post you were replying to, given the actual photos of letters posted online I am much more inclined to believe pax than a thieving money-grabbing for-profit company
It's not exactly an onerous URL though.
As far as an URL to a specific page goes, it's a rather simple one.

Originally Posted by skywardhunter View Post
2. Many pax on holiday may not have purchased a local SIM card, may not have WiFi or data roaming available or the presence of mind to connect to the airport WiFi, it available [rest of the post snipped]
Herein lies the problem with auto-rebooking an attempting to notify people. How do you notify them quickly if they don't have a local SIM card, data roaming switched off, they've walked off from the gate area, and they don't know how to connect to Wifi or hadn't thought of it? Calling them back to the gate to inform them, or keeping them penned in until it's all done is, but then you start to get complaints too.

---
As a general comment and not specifically in reply to Skywardhunter, I take the view that things do go wrong when travelling.

Cars may break down and may cause you to miss your flight. Aeroplanes may break down and put you in a bit of a mess. Bad weather may hit. We need to be prepared to take it, and deal with it, and not be so reliant on others to deal with it for us (even if that is their responsibility, it is often in our own interest to have some initiatives, although with initiatives come accountability and we need to be accountable for the choice we make there).

It may sound incredibly harsh but if we don't have a degree of self-sufficiency, being a bit of street-wise, and have a reasonable dose of pragmatism etc. to deal with those things that are thrown at us without getting highly emotional and distressed (proviso: this comment is only relevant in the absence of an extenuating circumstance), we should perhaps travel with someone who do, or deem ourselves not ready to travel yet.

Last edited by LTN Phobia; Nov 5, 18 at 7:52 pm
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Old Nov 5, 18, 7:36 pm
  #105  
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Originally Posted by LTN Phobia View Post
It's not exactly an onerous URL though.
If it was ec261.com it'd still be unreasonable.
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