Swearing passenger ruined first F
Nov 3, 2018, 1:38 am
#181
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Plymouth, UK
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Posts: 1,159
Just because you no longer wish to discuss it further why should the thread be locked so no one else can. I am finding the discussion fascinating to watch and I don't feel that it should be locked just because there is no consensus.
IMHO threads should not be locked at all unless there is an overriding need to calm things down or prevent it turning into a virtual bar-fight! Plus, others joining the thread later may have something interesting to add at a later date. There is nothing worse than finding a thread, having something you want to contribute but the thread has been locked for no real reason.
Please leave this, and other long threads open.
Nov 3, 2018, 2:18 am
#182
Join Date: Jun 2015
Programs: BA Silver, Skywards Silver
Posts: 112
It seems there are two perceived "rights" coming into conflict here:
1. The right of someone to "inflict" their child's noise / behaviour on other passengers.
2. The right of someone not to have a child's noise / behaviour "inflicted" on them.
The disagreements here seem to centre around whose "right" should trump whose.
1. The right of someone to "inflict" their child's noise / behaviour on other passengers.
2. The right of someone not to have a child's noise / behaviour "inflicted" on them.
The disagreements here seem to centre around whose "right" should trump whose.
Nov 3, 2018, 3:22 am
#183
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 80
It seems there are two perceived "rights" coming into conflict here:
1. The right of someone to "inflict" their child's noise / behaviour on other passengers.
2. The right of someone not to have a child's noise / behaviour "inflicted" on them.
The disagreements here seem to centre around whose "right" should trump whose.
1. The right of someone to "inflict" their child's noise / behaviour on other passengers.
2. The right of someone not to have a child's noise / behaviour "inflicted" on them.
The disagreements here seem to centre around whose "right" should trump whose.
1. the right of parents to use public transportation with children.
2. the right of others to travel undisturbed.
In legal theory, when two conflicting principles collide, you balance those principles taking into account, i.a., importance of the principles in general, severity of violation of the principles and probabilities of a violations to happen.
Usually, someone with authority (typically the legislator, regulatory authority or a judge, but could also be a private entity with respect to "house rules") embarks on this balancing excercise making (clearer and more concrete) rules for everyone to follow.
In this case, absent state legislation on this issue, the airline is in a position to balance those interests and make rules accordingly. This brings us to two conclusions:
1. BA, as the authority making the rules, allows infants/children in F. Thus, there is no basis for someone to complain if they find an infant/child in F.
2. People complaining want the rules to change. It's obviously their right to lobby for that (at BA/legislator), but I submit that they do that in a civilized manner addressing the proper authority (and not complaining to parents for simply following the rules).
Having settled this, there is always an area that cannot reasonably be addressed with specific rules . For example, a rule stating "parents can use F with, but only if they undertake to make best efforts", may be desirable for most, but is essentially useless and unenforceable. That said, there will always be these areas when humans interact. Most people instinctively do the right thing and do not push to exercise their rights to the full extend in these situations (e.g., talk quietly on the phone even if phones in lounges are, in principle, allowed).
Nov 3, 2018, 3:28 am
#184
Moderator: British Airways Executive Club
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Nov 3, 2018, 3:33 am
#185
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Vale of Glamorgan
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The issue of children and babies in premium cabins has raged here almost continuously for a decade or more. A consensus will never be reached.
My opinion is that the First cabin should be a quiet zone, much like those on Swiss trains, where nothing above the level of quiet conversation is permitted or tolerated. I don't care whether there are babies, children or drunks in the cabin as long as they are quiet. Conversely, anyone making a noise should be removed until they have quietened down, no matter how young they are or how much they paid for their ticket.
My opinion is that the First cabin should be a quiet zone, much like those on Swiss trains, where nothing above the level of quiet conversation is permitted or tolerated. I don't care whether there are babies, children or drunks in the cabin as long as they are quiet. Conversely, anyone making a noise should be removed until they have quietened down, no matter how young they are or how much they paid for their ticket.
Nov 3, 2018, 4:25 am
#186
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Vietnam & USA
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Posts: 455
I think I made it abundantly clear in my post that it did not justify his behaviour... In fact I went as far to say that I'd have challenged him on his behaviour.
I do not think swearing in this situation amounts to "bullying" though, unless it was frequent but doesn't sound like it, because the opening post mentioned a specific time point of 3 hours into the flight, and "multiple times", which suggests that it wasn't done repeatedly over a period of time but rather what was said involved multiple swear words but the guy did not swear repeatedly for a length of time. It sounds more like an inappropriate behaviour/response that was probably borne out of anger and annoyance.
The word "bullying" in my opinion is frequently used far too lightly, and I say this as someone who has donated thousands of hours and tens of thousands of pounds to deal with acts of bullying and I hate it when it is used in a situation that is really not, because it 'lightens' the seriousness of the act of bullying and it makes it harder to deal with real bullying.
In that case, it should be even easier to see that causing noise disturbance to others (as you mentioned that your son was making noise for 1.5 hours) and making it harder for them to sleep etc. can potentially be particularly annoying for them, and you must be aware of the potential to disturb others should he become noisy.
I assume he had, however, been disturbed by the noise while your son was making noise for 1.5 hours? Maybe he realised the source of noise then. It's not right to swear etc. obviously but maybe he was angry and was sort of aggressive/passive-aggressive about it because he didn't want to make a complaint.
If he plain didn't like seeing a young person in the cabin without having been disturbed, it's plain silly and it's his loss, really.
I do not think swearing in this situation amounts to "bullying" though, unless it was frequent but doesn't sound like it, because the opening post mentioned a specific time point of 3 hours into the flight, and "multiple times", which suggests that it wasn't done repeatedly over a period of time but rather what was said involved multiple swear words but the guy did not swear repeatedly for a length of time. It sounds more like an inappropriate behaviour/response that was probably borne out of anger and annoyance.
The word "bullying" in my opinion is frequently used far too lightly, and I say this as someone who has donated thousands of hours and tens of thousands of pounds to deal with acts of bullying and I hate it when it is used in a situation that is really not, because it 'lightens' the seriousness of the act of bullying and it makes it harder to deal with real bullying.
In that case, it should be even easier to see that causing noise disturbance to others (as you mentioned that your son was making noise for 1.5 hours) and making it harder for them to sleep etc. can potentially be particularly annoying for them, and you must be aware of the potential to disturb others should he become noisy.
I assume he had, however, been disturbed by the noise while your son was making noise for 1.5 hours? Maybe he realised the source of noise then. It's not right to swear etc. obviously but maybe he was angry and was sort of aggressive/passive-aggressive about it because he didn't want to make a complaint.
If he plain didn't like seeing a young person in the cabin without having been disturbed, it's plain silly and it's his loss, really.
Nov 3, 2018, 4:31 am
#187
Fontaine d'honneur du Flyertalk
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What have you got against Yorkshire? 
Not allowing animals in the cabin is one thing I feel a bit sad about BA (and other British airlines, it's not their choosing I believe, but rather the law) though, but then, I can imagine threads complaining about animal allergies and pets in cabin, or barking dogs in the cabin
Not allowing animals in the cabin is one thing I feel a bit sad about BA (and other British airlines, it's not their choosing I believe, but rather the law) though, but then, I can imagine threads complaining about animal allergies and pets in cabin, or barking dogs in the cabin
Nov 3, 2018, 5:09 am
#188
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Assume the crying child was extremely ill, which was very unfortunate and completely understandable. Otherwise it is truly unbelievable - you would seriouly request a medical diversion of a whole plane for your one crying child? I think there would have been more than swearing from the other passengers (regardless of travel class!) about that.
Some people just swear a lot, saying it may be a precursor to violence is ridiculous. Perhaps that the crew didn't intervene is an indication of the seriousness they viewed it with. Do you ever travel on a bus or tube in London, because expect to hear swearing, and that's public transport, which is how you described the plane. I really don't follow your position here, either it's public transport or it's something special where you can expect to control the whole environment to suit yourself.
The use of foul language in a public place may be seen as harassment causing alarm, distress or a fear of violence. That shifts it into a criminal activity irrespective of whether there is actual violence.
My inclination with BA crew and others (recent Ryan air foul mouth mouthed racist rant) is that crew are simply not capable of dealing with many challenging situations and choose path of least resistance. Down to the dumbing down of roles and lack of trying and self confidence.
The more I read of your posts, the more you could be my better self. I agree with you totally. Air France and Lufthansa allow them aboard. As do iberia amd the barbaric Vueling. My best friends travel from Alicante to Nantes regularly with their bundle of fluff in a basket. Not a peep out of him. What does amuse them is that with Vueling they pay more for the dog on the floor than themselves in seats!
I also have friends in HKG who only ever fly AF for the reason that they allow their cat in the cabin.
Genuinely conflicted here as my instinct is to recoil but as my wife said, I would be perfectly happy if it were a guide dog for example........
Nov 3, 2018, 5:36 am
#190
Join Date: Aug 2014
Programs: BA Executive Club and OnBusiness
Posts: 717
I struggle to understand the idea that "If I want to do it then I can, and if you don't like it, tough".
Music/videos without headphones, loud phone conversations, swearing in public, eating a hamburger on a bus or train, "they're just kids so let them do XYZ" etc. Things that in my world view are inconsiderate and/or simply embarrassing.
I am puzzled by people who do or allow something that reason and experience suggests might annoy other people, and then believe they are the victim when those around them get annoyed. Are they autistic and unable to read or predict the response of others, or will the word "consideration" be removed from dictionaries one day?
Music/videos without headphones, loud phone conversations, swearing in public, eating a hamburger on a bus or train, "they're just kids so let them do XYZ" etc. Things that in my world view are inconsiderate and/or simply embarrassing.
I am puzzled by people who do or allow something that reason and experience suggests might annoy other people, and then believe they are the victim when those around them get annoyed. Are they autistic and unable to read or predict the response of others, or will the word "consideration" be removed from dictionaries one day?
Nov 3, 2018, 5:56 am
#191
Join Date: May 2010
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Nov 3, 2018, 6:18 am
#192
Original Poster
Join Date: Sep 2016
Programs: BA Silver, IHG Platinum Elite
Posts: 174
I struggle to understand the idea that "If I want to do it then I can, and if you don't like it, tough".
Music/videos without headphones, loud phone conversations, swearing in public, eating a hamburger on a bus or train, "they're just kids so let them do XYZ" etc. Things that in my world view are inconsiderate and/or simply embarrassing.
I am puzzled by people who do or allow something that reason and experience suggests might annoy other people, and then believe they are the victim when those around them get annoyed. Are they autistic and unable to read or predict the response of others, or will the word "consideration" be removed from dictionaries one day?
Music/videos without headphones, loud phone conversations, swearing in public, eating a hamburger on a bus or train, "they're just kids so let them do XYZ" etc. Things that in my world view are inconsiderate and/or simply embarrassing.
I am puzzled by people who do or allow something that reason and experience suggests might annoy other people, and then believe they are the victim when those around them get annoyed. Are they autistic and unable to read or predict the response of others, or will the word "consideration" be removed from dictionaries one day?
Nov 3, 2018, 6:33 am
#193
Join Date: Aug 2014
Programs: BA Executive Club and OnBusiness
Posts: 717
Children travel on planes. People get irritated. Parents are protective of their children - sometimes overly so. It happens., By all means feel free to rant about it, But at some point you need to move on.
Last edited by Ned1968; Nov 3, 2018 at 6:40 am
Nov 3, 2018, 6:44 am
#194
Original Poster
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Nov 3, 2018, 6:45 am
#195
Join Date: May 2010
Location: AVP & PEK
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In general, I find persons who voice their frustrations and feelings immediately and in an unrestrained manner MUCH easier to deal with, than others who remain silent and let their opinion/feelings fester...
