Club World: How do they get away with it?
Sep 4, 2018, 11:17 am
#106
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: HKG
Programs: BA GGL & CCR
Posts: 600
Sep 4, 2018, 11:34 am
#107
Join Date: May 2016
Location: UK
Programs: British Airways Executive Club Gold, Global Entry
Posts: 363
I had the misfortune of taking two BA flights in Club World (business) this week: IAD-LHR ad LHR-TLV. It's the first time I've booked and flown BA since 2012. It was bad.
What I didn't like:
- As a non-status member, you can't book your seat before check-in. I can't think of any other airline that actually charges (north of $100) for seat assignments in business.
- I would have had status had my two Iberia flights the week before counted as eligible flights. But one of them was on AA code, so no. I had the TP to make Bronze, but not the flights. I know, these are the rules... I just don't like them.
- The hard product is ridiculous. 747 on the transatlantic flight and 777 on the second one; both 20 years old. The seats are top of the line for 1998, but we're in 2018. It wasn't just that they were extremely narrow; it's the fact that there's simply no storage space. Want to read a book? No place for it. Phone? No. Eyeglasses when you sleep? Sorry, no. And don't put your bag on the floor during takeoff and landing because the entire floor space is considered exit row. Yes, the upper deck on the 747 has some space, but with no access to advance seat assignment...
- All window seats face backward.
- Service was indifferent. On the transatlantic flight I (tried to) sleep. But the crew simply wasn't there. On the second flight, a day flight, they disappeared after the meal service and stayed in the galley for the entire duration of the flight.
- What would you serve on a flight that is supposed to take off at 8am and land at 3pm (local times)? BA serves breakfast. Two versions of scrambled eggs, one porridge (porridge? seriously?) and a continental spread. They ran out of the latter as they only loaded four of them (for 56 pax). I can't remember when I had such bad food in business class.
- And then they had some mechanical issue; landed 75 minutes late. I know, this happens.
What I liked:
- The number of landings equaled the number of take-offs. Which is what really matters.
I can't see why anyone would want to fly in these miserable seats. I understand that service can be inconsistent and that delays happen. It's the hard product that I find totally unacceptable. Iberia (including the new 350 to NY) was so much better; and so are TK, LH, LX and even RJ, the airlines I tried in the past two years in business. I learned.
Shuly
What I didn't like:
- As a non-status member, you can't book your seat before check-in. I can't think of any other airline that actually charges (north of $100) for seat assignments in business.
- I would have had status had my two Iberia flights the week before counted as eligible flights. But one of them was on AA code, so no. I had the TP to make Bronze, but not the flights. I know, these are the rules... I just don't like them.
- The hard product is ridiculous. 747 on the transatlantic flight and 777 on the second one; both 20 years old. The seats are top of the line for 1998, but we're in 2018. It wasn't just that they were extremely narrow; it's the fact that there's simply no storage space. Want to read a book? No place for it. Phone? No. Eyeglasses when you sleep? Sorry, no. And don't put your bag on the floor during takeoff and landing because the entire floor space is considered exit row. Yes, the upper deck on the 747 has some space, but with no access to advance seat assignment...
- All window seats face backward.
- Service was indifferent. On the transatlantic flight I (tried to) sleep. But the crew simply wasn't there. On the second flight, a day flight, they disappeared after the meal service and stayed in the galley for the entire duration of the flight.
- What would you serve on a flight that is supposed to take off at 8am and land at 3pm (local times)? BA serves breakfast. Two versions of scrambled eggs, one porridge (porridge? seriously?) and a continental spread. They ran out of the latter as they only loaded four of them (for 56 pax). I can't remember when I had such bad food in business class.
- And then they had some mechanical issue; landed 75 minutes late. I know, this happens.
What I liked:
- The number of landings equaled the number of take-offs. Which is what really matters.
I can't see why anyone would want to fly in these miserable seats. I understand that service can be inconsistent and that delays happen. It's the hard product that I find totally unacceptable. Iberia (including the new 350 to NY) was so much better; and so are TK, LH, LX and even RJ, the airlines I tried in the past two years in business. I learned.
Shuly
Sep 4, 2018, 11:46 am
#108
Join Date: May 2017
Programs: BA Silver
Posts: 120
I said nigh-on monopoly rather than monopoly. It's certainly an oligopoly if not a duopoly once tie-ups and alliances are comprehended, BA/AA, Virgin/Delta. There's United too, anyone else flying LHR-JFK direct?
I'm not for a second saying BA abuse a monopolistic position. I'm saying when they fly many hundreds of people every single day on 8-abreast J class on that route alone, and people and businesses continue to pay the fares, why on earth would they go 1-2-1 in business class?
I'm not a BA knocker, I'm a Silver who flies 15-20 times a year. But it's fairly simple to explain to someone who doesn't regularly fly them why their business class hard product is decades behind the curve, because they have no incentive to innovate when they hold such a strong position flying over the North Atlantic.
I'm not for a second saying BA abuse a monopolistic position. I'm saying when they fly many hundreds of people every single day on 8-abreast J class on that route alone, and people and businesses continue to pay the fares, why on earth would they go 1-2-1 in business class?
I'm not a BA knocker, I'm a Silver who flies 15-20 times a year. But it's fairly simple to explain to someone who doesn't regularly fly them why their business class hard product is decades behind the curve, because they have no incentive to innovate when they hold such a strong position flying over the North Atlantic.
Sep 4, 2018, 12:12 pm
#109
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Argentina
Posts: 40,210
Sep 4, 2018, 12:16 pm
#110
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London
Programs: Mucci. Nothing else matters.
Posts: 38,644
I said nigh-on monopoly rather than monopoly. It's certainly an oligopoly if not a duopoly once tie-ups and alliances are comprehended, BA/AA, Virgin/Delta. There's United too, anyone else flying LHR-JFK direct?
I'm not for a second saying BA abuse a monopolistic position. I'm saying when they fly many hundreds of people every single day on 8-abreast J class on that route alone, and people and businesses continue to pay the fares, why on earth would they go 1-2-1 in business class?
I'm not for a second saying BA abuse a monopolistic position. I'm saying when they fly many hundreds of people every single day on 8-abreast J class on that route alone, and people and businesses continue to pay the fares, why on earth would they go 1-2-1 in business class?
Funnily enough, you've alighted on probably the least oligopolistic route amongst BA's. LHR-JFK has four airlines across two JV-type alliances (note: JFK does not include UA); and if you count EWR as part of the NYC airport system, that's six airlines in total (AI and UA not having a JV, as far as I know).
So whatever the reason that hundreds of people continue to pay CW fares and board BA aircraft on LHR-JFK, it's not because a BA monopoly forces them to put up with a CW seat that they hate. That proposition does not wash. They can jump ship within the same JV alliance, or go to a competitor with a better seat.But you do a very good job of giving that impression if you parrot the simplistic line pushed by others that CW is 8-abreast and other business class products are 4-abreast. Other airlines do not operate their business class cabins at half the density of BA's. They have compromises too, and pretty much all of the compromises involve overlapping head/shoulders with feet of successive rows in some way to increase density.
What BA does have is a denser cabin than others, because that's what the CW set-up allows. There are some perfectly fair analyses of why this works commercially for BA and why BA has not been in a screaming hurry to replace it. But they are much more complex than saying "BA has a (nigh-)monopoly on its routes" - not only is that far from the truth, it's far from the rather complicated commercial reality.
Sep 4, 2018, 12:58 pm
#111
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 460
Came here because I need to choose between BA and VS+9W for my wife and I for our first flight in Business Class, going between SFO and BOM. This is meant to be a splurge.
Having read through the thread, I'm still not sure whether the backward facing "honeymoon seats" are a good or a bad thing?
And does booking through AA waive the early seat assignment fee? If not, I will pay it to get the seats we want.
Thanks.
Having read through the thread, I'm still not sure whether the backward facing "honeymoon seats" are a good or a bad thing?
And does booking through AA waive the early seat assignment fee? If not, I will pay it to get the seats we want.
Thanks.
Sep 4, 2018, 2:02 pm
#113
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: BOS
Programs: BA - Blue > Bronze > Silver > Bronze > Blue
Posts: 6,812
Of course it does, otherwise it would fly empty.
I can't wait until the new BA seat comes out and people are moaning about prices and lack of reward space instead. There will be less cheap fares from DUB etc.. when there's 10% less business seats to fill.
'You asked for it' will be the only real response
I can't wait until the new BA seat comes out and people are moaning about prices and lack of reward space instead. There will be less cheap fares from DUB etc.. when there's 10% less business seats to fill.
'You asked for it' will be the only real response
Sep 4, 2018, 2:07 pm
#114
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: BOS
Programs: BA - Blue > Bronze > Silver > Bronze > Blue
Posts: 6,812
Personally I think its great as it is. Cheap fares and (some) reward space on BA if you want a quick A-Z. Better service at a same/ cheaper fare if time/ sleep is something you're willing to sacrifice for more comfort.
As I mentioned above, Im sure there will be a few peeved if they're forced to stop off in DOH, due to the fact BA fares have gone up a few hundred quid, so you don't have to step over someone to go to the loo once a flight.
Sep 4, 2018, 2:10 pm
#116
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: BOS
Programs: BA - Blue > Bronze > Silver > Bronze > Blue
Posts: 6,812
Came here because I need to choose between BA and VS+9W for my wife and I for our first flight in Business Class, going between SFO and BOM. This is meant to be a splurge.
Having read through the thread, I'm still not sure whether the backward facing "honeymoon seats" are a good or a bad thing?
And does booking through AA waive the early seat assignment fee? If not, I will pay it to get the seats we want.
Thanks.
Having read through the thread, I'm still not sure whether the backward facing "honeymoon seats" are a good or a bad thing?
And does booking through AA waive the early seat assignment fee? If not, I will pay it to get the seats we want.
Thanks.
There is no skipping the fees via AA. Personally I would go for a window/ aisle combo on BA if I were you, the 'honeymoon' seats aren't anywhere near as close as people make out, being able to look at your partner is a far more pleasurable experience.
Sep 4, 2018, 3:06 pm
#117
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: LHR/ATH
Programs: Amex Platinum, LH SEN (Gold), BA Bronze
Posts: 4,489
Conclusion:
- Monopoly, no. Between the direct competition on these many routes, plus all the easily-accessible indirect competition to practically all of them, nobody is forced by "monopoly" to fly in the CW seat.
Sep 4, 2018, 3:12 pm
#118
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: LHR/ATH
Programs: Amex Platinum, LH SEN (Gold), BA Bronze
Posts: 4,489
I think its a matter of BA knows their customers well, and can generally get away with 'murder'. The planes are full, so BA feels they are doing fine. When they feel they are struggling a bit too much, they do change a bit, such as the Club World seats as people are mentioning.
I wouldn't rate BA a bad airline, more of an average one. Skytrax 3 stars would sound about right.
I wouldn't rate BA a bad airline, more of an average one. Skytrax 3 stars would sound about right.
Sep 4, 2018, 3:20 pm
#119
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Seattle, WA
Programs: DL Diamond 1.7MM, Starlux Insighter, Bonvoy Titanium, Hilton Gold, Hertz PC
Posts: 3,947
Point taken, but also to be fair, this isn’t exactly a free market route either. LHR is heavily slot controlled, and BA has license (licence?) to a large portion of the capacity. This can keep fares high on other airlines’ flights. (And, as has been noted, the VS seat is pretty shockingly bad, too, so a form of detente prevails for now with the two hometown airlines.)