Club World: How do they get away with it?

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Old Sep 4, 18, 3:24 am
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BA has a large hold on London slots so as a result lacks competition on all routes and a Conservative (Tory) govt who don't invest in public transport or services generally.

However, they (BA) will be releasing a new seat from next year on their A350. They are currently in the progress of rolling out new on board amenities including, bedding, kits, Wi-Fi and have changed catering suppliers on all routes. All aircraft currently undergoing a thorough deep clean and the ghastly 747 are gradually being retired from the fleet.
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Old Sep 4, 18, 3:28 am
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Originally Posted by icegirl View Post
BA has a large hold on London slots so as a result lacks competition on all routes and a Conservative (Tory) govt who don't invest in public transport or services generally.

However, they (BA) will be releasing a new seat from next year on their A350. They are currently in the progress of rolling out new on board amenities including, bedding, kits, Wi-Fi and have changed catering suppliers on all routes. All aircraft currently undergoing a thorough deep clean and the ghastly 747 are gradually being retired from the fleet.
Ghastly 747s? Some are in bad repair and the F and J products that BA fits them with are uncompetitive but they are wonderful airplanes. I love the nose and the upper deck and will miss them sorely when they are gone. Why do you call them ghastly?
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Old Sep 4, 18, 3:30 am
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Originally Posted by Seat_1F View Post


Ghastly 747s? Some are in bad repair and the F and J products that BA fits them with are uncompetitive but they are wonderful airplanes. I love the nose and the upper deck and will miss them sorely when they are gone. Why do you call them ghastly?
+1 I love the 747 and would make a point of routing through it if it is UD or in F.

However the deep clean is either too slow or the results are being wiped out after a few quick cleans after. My four recent 747 legs in Jul & Aug the planes were gross. Not an exaggeration - filthy. Including exLHR
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Old Sep 4, 18, 3:30 am
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Old Sep 4, 18, 3:33 am
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Originally Posted by Phil the Flyer View Post


Evidence? Facts? Figures?


HIDDY could well be right as the number of overall passengers increases. As for the old unrefurbished CW product I personally would not book it and would always go to say LAS via LAX or some other routing to the states where they are mainly used.

Passengers: 44.5 million, up 2.8% (2015: 43.3 million)

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=br...hrome&ie=UTF-8
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Old Sep 4, 18, 3:35 am
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Originally Posted by Seat_1F View Post


Ghastly 747s? Some are in bad repair and the F and J products that BA fits them with are uncompetitive but they are wonderful airplanes. I love the nose and the upper deck and will miss them sorely when they are gone. Why do you call them ghastly?
I understand your point, but sadly these ones are well past there sell past date and are probably better off in a museum that flying in the sky. I do like their onboard refurbished economy product which I think is very good.
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Old Sep 4, 18, 3:42 am
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Originally Posted by Seat_1F View Post


Ghastly 747s? Some are in bad repair and the F and J products that BA fits them with are uncompetitive but they are wonderful airplanes. I love the nose and the upper deck and will miss them sorely when they are gone. Why do you call them ghastly?
And a warm welcome to Flyertalk and the BA Board Seat_1F

Until the last one of the old mid-J's goes there will always be those who still like them (the 747's I mean) and not the old seats/IFE etc and those who don't.
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Old Sep 4, 18, 3:53 am
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Originally Posted by icegirl View Post
BA has a large hold on London slots so as a result lacks competition on all routes and a Conservative (Tory) govt who don't invest in public transport or services generally.

However, they (BA) will be releasing a new seat from next year on their A350. They are currently in the progress of rolling out new on board amenities including, bedding, kits, Wi-Fi and have changed catering suppliers on all routes. All aircraft currently undergoing a thorough deep clean and the ghastly 747 are gradually being retired from the fleet.
I knew it would be the Tories fault at some point.
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Old Sep 4, 18, 4:03 am
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Originally Posted by icegirl View Post
BA has a large hold on London slots so as a result lacks competition on all routes and a Conservative (Tory) govt who don't invest in public transport or services generally.
Originally Posted by FeedbirdNiner View Post
I knew it would be the Tories fault at some point.
I'm not sure how BA's hold on London slots is the Tories fault TBH What could the Government done (other than deciding on the third runway sooner)?
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Old Sep 4, 18, 4:04 am
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Originally Posted by icegirl View Post
I understand your point, but sadly these ones are well past there sell past date and are probably better off in a museum that flying in the sky. I do like their onboard refurbished economy product which I think is very good.
To each their own - the UD is still the BA J product I seek before anything and will move my schedule accordingly.
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Old Sep 4, 18, 4:20 am
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Originally Posted by Lefly View Post
IF the blind works...
On my last flight on CW the blind didn't want to stay up, so for most of the flight it was face to face with the neighbor.
a bit of card ripped off the menu and wedged in does the trick. Surprised the crew didn’t offer this service.
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Old Sep 4, 18, 4:31 am
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Originally Posted by jackcarr View Post
How they get away with it is very simple. Nigh on monopoly of some very lucrative transatlantic routes.
Originally Posted by Mutu View Post
I sort of take exception to this simplistic point about monopolistic power that comes up from time to time.
Originally Posted by icegirl View Post
BA has a large hold on London slots so as a result lacks competition on all routes ...
I thought it was probably worth doing this exercise again: For all Wikipedia's faults, its listings of airlines and direct destinations from any airport are usually pretty accurate. For the sake of simplicity, I've taken LHR alone and ignored planned route introductions and terminations (as there's a large element of swings and roundabouts in those). I've included seasonal routes for the same reasons. Cities with more than one airports are counted once, except for JFK/EWR. Joint venture partners are counted as separate airlines, because we're looking at seat products so (for example) AA's 77W business class seat does compete against BA's CW seat.

On this basis, LHR currently has 212 routes. Of these, BA has a monopoly on 68:-
1. Abuja
2. Accra
3. Almeria
4. Austin
5. Baltimore
6. Bangalore
7. Basel/Mulhouse/Freiburg
8. Bilbao
9. Billund
10. Bologna
11. Brindisi
12. Budapest
13. Buenos Aires–Ezeiza
14. Cape Town
15. Chania
16. Chennai
17. Corfu
18. Durban
19. Faro
20. Figari
21. Gibraltar
22. Glasgow–International
23. Gothenburg
24. Grand Cayman
25. Grenoble
26. Hanover
27. Hyderabad
28. Ibiza
29. Innsbruck
30. Inverness
31. Kalamata
32. Kefalonia
33. Kiev–Boryspil
34. Krakow
35. Leeds/Bradford
36. Luxembourg
37. Lyon
38. Mahe Island
39. Malaga
40. Manchester
41. Marrakesh
42. Marseille
43. Menorca
44. Murcia
45. Mykonos
46. Nantes
47. Nashville
48. Nassau
49. New Orleans
50. Newcastle upon Tyne
51. Nice
52. Olbia
53. Palermo
54. Pisa
55. Pittsburgh
56. Prague
57. Pula
58. Rio de Janeiro–Galeao
59. Saint Petersburg
60. San Diego
61. San Jose (CA)
62. Santiago de Chile
63. Santorini
64. Tallinn
65. Tenerife–South
66. Toulouse
67. Venice
68. Zakynthos


On a further 57 routes, other airlines have a monopoly on the route:-
1. A Coruna (Vueling)
2. Addis Ababa (Ethiopian Airlines)
3. Ahmedabad (Air India)
4. Algiers (Air Algérie)
5. Ashgabat (Turkmenistan Airlines)
6. Astana (Air Astana)
7. Asturias (Iberia Express)
8. Auckland (Air New Zealand)
9. Baku (Azerbaijan Airlines)
10. Bandar Seri Begawan (Royal Brunei Airlines)
11. Barbados (Virgin Atlantic)
12. Belgrade (Air Serbia)
13. Bogota (Avianca)
14. Casablanca (Royal Air Maroc)
15. Changsha (Hainan Airlines)
16. Charlotte (American Airlines)
17. Chongqing (Tianjin Airlines)
18. Cologne/Bonn (Eurowings)
19. Colombo (SriLankan Airlines)
20. Cork (Aer Lingus)
21. Detroit (Delta Air Lines)
22. Dhaka (Biman Bangladesh Airlines)
23. Guangzhou (China Southern Airlines)
24. Halifax (Air Canada)
25. Hanoi (Vietnam Airlines)
26. Ho Chi Minh City (Vietnam Airlines)
27. Islamabad (Pakistan International Airlines)
28. Jakarta–Soekarno–Hatta (Garuda Indonesia)
29. Karachi (Pakistan International Airlines)
30. Lahore (Pakistan International Airlines)
31. Luxor (EgyptAir)
32. Malta (Air Malta)
33. Manila (Philippine Airlines)
34. Mauritius (Air Mauritius)
35. Medina (Saudia)
36. Melbourne (Qantas)
37. Minneapolis/St Paul (Delta Air Lines)
38. Ottawa (Air Canada)
39. Perth (Qantas)
40. Portland (OR) (Delta Air Lines)
41. Qingdao (Beijing Capital Airlines)
42. Rabat (Royal Air Maroc)
43. Raleigh/Durham (American Airlines)
44. Salt Lake City (Delta Air Lines)
45. Sanya (China Southern Airlines)
46. Shannon (Aer Lingus)
47. Shenzhen (Shenzhen Airlines)
48. Sion (Swiss International Air Lines)
49. St John’s (Air Canada)
50. Stavanger (Scandinavian Airlines)
51. Sylhet (Biman Bangladesh Airlines)
52. Taipei–Taoyuan (EVA Air)
53. Tashkent (Uzbekistan Airways)
54. Tianjin (Tianjin Airlines)
55. Tunis (Tunisair)
56. Wuhan (China Southern Airlines)
57. Xian (Tianjin Airlines)


This leaves 87 routes on which airlines compete directly. This would seem to include all of the trans-Atlantic routes which might be thought likely to be lucrative:-
1. Aberdeen (2: British Airways, Flybe)
2. Abu Dhabi (2: British Airways, Etihad Airways)
3. Amman–Queen Alia (2: British Airways, Royal Jordanian)
4. Amsterdam (2: British Airways, KLM)
5. Athens (2: Aegean Airlines, British Airways)
6. Atlanta (3: British Airways, Delta Air Lines, Virgin Atlantic)
7. Bahrain (2: British Airways, Gulf Air)
8. Bangkok–Suvarnabhumi (3: British Airways, EVA Air, Thai Airways)
9. Barcelona (2: British Airways, Vueling)
10. Beijing–Capital (2: Air China, British Airways)
11. Beirut (2: British Airways, Middle East Airlines)
12. Belfast–City (2: Aer Lingus, British Airways)
13. Berlin–Tegel (2: British Airways, Eurowings)
14. Boston (3: British Airways, Delta Air Lines, Virgin Atlantic)
15. Brussels (3: British Airways, Brussels Airlines)
16. Bucharest–Otopeni (2: British Airways, TAROM)
17. Cairo (2: British Airways, EgyptAir)
18. Calgary (2: Air Canada, British Airways)
19. Chicago–O’Hare (3: American Airlines, British Airways, United Airlines)
20. Copenhagen (2: British Airways, Scandinavian Airlines)
21. Dallas/Fort Worth (2: American Airlines, British Airways)
22. Delhi (4: Air India, British Airways, Jet Airways, Virgin Atlantic)
23. Denver (2: British Airways, United Airlines)
24. Doha (2: British Airways, Qatar Airways)
25. Dubai–International (4: British Airways, Emirates, Royal Brunei Airlines, Virgin Atlantic)
26. Dublin (2: Aer Lingus, British Airways)
27. Dusseldorf (2: British Airways, Eurowings)
28. Edinburgh (2: British Airways, Flybe)
29. Frankfurt (2: British Airways, Lufthansa)
30. Geneva (2: British Airways, Swiss International Air Lines)
31. Gran Canaria (2: British Airways, Iberia Express)
32. Hamburg (2: British Airways, Eurowings)
33. Helsinki (2: British Airways, Finnair)
34. Hong Kong (3: British Airways, Cathay Pacific, Virgin Atlantic)
35. Houston–Intercontinental (2: British Airways, United Airlines)
36. Istanbul–Ataturk (2: British Airways, Turkish Airlines)
37. Jeddah (2: British Airways, Saudia)
38. Johannesburg–OR Tambo (3: British Airways, South African Airways, Virgin Atlantic)
39. Kuala Lumpur–International (2: British Airways, Malaysia Airlines)
40. Kuwait City (2: British Airways, Kuwait Airways)
41. Lagos (2: British Airways, Virgin Atlantic)
42. Larnaca (2: British Airways, Cobalt Air)
43. Las Vegas (2: British Airways, Virgin Atlantic)
44. Lisbon (2: British Airways, TAP Air Portugal)
45. Los Angeles (5: Air New Zealand, American Airlines, British Airways, United Airlines, Virgin Atlantic)
46. Madrid (2: British Airways, Iberia)
47. Mexico City (2: Aeroméxico, British Airways)
48. Miami (3: American Airlines, British Airways, Virgin Atlantic)
49. Milan (2: Alitalia, British Airways)
50. Montreal–Trudeau (2: Air Canada, British Airways)
51. Moscow (2: Aeroflot, British Airways)
52. Mumbai (3: Air India, British Airways, Jet Airways)
53. Munich (2: British Airways, Lufthansa)
54. Muscat (2: British Airways, Oman Air)
55. Nairobi–Jomo Kenyatta (2: British Airways, Kenya Airways)
56. New York–JFK (4: American Airlines, British Airways, Delta Air Lines, Virgin Atlantic)
57. Newark (4: Air India, British Airways, United Airlines, Virgin Atlantic)
58. Oslo–Gardermoen (2: British Airways, Scandinavian Airlines)
59. Palma de Mallorca (2: British Airways, Iberia Express)
60. Paris–Charles de Gaulle (2: Air France, British Airways)
61. Philadelphia (2: American Airlines, British Airways)
62. Phoenix–Sky Harbor (2: American Airlines, British Airways)
63. Reykjavík–Keflavík (2: British Airways, Icelandair)
64. Riyadh (2: British Airways, Saudia)
65. Rome–Fiumicino (2: Alitalia, British Airways)
66. Salzburg (2: British Airways, Eurowings)
67. San Francisco (3: British Airways, United Airlines, Virgin Atlantic)
68. Sao Paulo–Guarulhos (2: British Airways, LATAM Brasil)
69. Seattle/Tacoma (2: British Airways, Virgin Atlantic)
70. Seoul–Incheon (3: Asiana Airlines, British Airways, Korean Air)
71. Shanghai–Pudong (3: British Airways, China Eastern Airlines, Virgin Atlantic)
72. Singapore (3: British Airways, Qantas, Singapore Airlines)
73. Sofia (2: British Airways, Bulgaria Air)
74. Split (2: British Airways, Croatia Airlines)
75. Stockholm–Arlanda (2: British Airways, Scandinavian Airlines)
76. Stuttgart (2: British Airways, Eurowings)
77. Sydney (2: British Airways, Qantas)
78. Tehran–Imam Khomeini (2: British Airways, Iran Air)
79. Tel Aviv–Ben Gurion (2: British Airways, El Al)
80. Tokyo (3: All Nippon Airways, British Airways, Japan Airlines)
81. Toronto–Pearson (2: Air Canada, British Airways)
82. Vancouver (2: Air Canada, British Airways)
83. Vienna (2: Austrian Airlines, British Airways)
84. Warsaw–Chopin (2: British Airways, LOT Polish Airlines)
85. Washington–Dulles (3: British Airways, United Airlines, Virgin Atlantic)
86. Zagreb (2: British Airways, Croatia Airlines)
87. Zurich (2: British Airways, Swiss International Air Lines)
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Old Sep 4, 18, 4:34 am
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Conclusion:
  • Dominant, yes - just like other home airlines at their home bases (AF at CDG, LH at FRA, for example).
  • Monopoly, no. Between the direct competition on these many routes, plus all the easily-accessible indirect competition to practically all of them, nobody is forced by "monopoly" to fly in the CW seat.
If you find that you're in the BA CW seat despite the fact that you hate it, clearly other factors were at work for BA to capture your business.
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Old Sep 4, 18, 4:38 am
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Originally Posted by icegirl View Post
BA has a large hold on London slots so as a result lacks competition on all routes
BA has a large proportion of LHR slots but there is only a handful of routes where BA does not face competition. I am surprised how hard some find it to look past their own preferences and to accept that maybe no one is forced to fly BA but that people simply find CW acceptable or they like it or they don't care that it is 20 years old. Not everyone is preoccupied with a particular seat design so there is nothing to get away with. Let's just assume that since everyone who hates CW stopped flying it (as they said they would), those who are flying CW these days actually want to do it for one reason or another, and there is no point in trying to figure out why they do it.
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Old Sep 4, 18, 4:47 am
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Originally Posted by Globaliser View Post
Conclusion:
  • Monopoly, no. Between the direct competition on these many routes, plus all the easily-accessible indirect competition to practically all of them, nobody is forced by "monopoly" to fly in the CW seat.
If you find that you're in the BA CW seat despite the fact that you hate it, clearly other factors were at work for BA to capture your business.
In that you have no choice in the matter as there are fewer alternatives or all other carriers are fully booked
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