orbitmic

I'm not commenting on the sarcastic reaction but on the specific notion that saying thank you is not necessary when being the recipient of a favour one did not ask for.

For me the starting point is that politeness is not "compulsory" but something you put into practice to be nice to others, show that you do not believe your rights and comforts to be more legitimate than theirs, and showing some form of empathy towards others.

Based on all of that, to me, the fact that you did or did not ask for something has no bearing at all on whether I would wish to be polite to someone who does something nice for me. It does not matter that the Christmas present from aunt Beth is horrid and the last thing I'd want, I won't say thank you based on my having asked for it but based on my understanding that she offered me a present to be nice to me and try to make me happier/more comfortable/etc .Exactly the same goes for the door. It is irrelevant (to me) that I do or do not like having the door held for me, if I think that the person did it to be nice and thinking that it would please me, then by my book, I would thank them to be polite and show that I appreciate the gesture.

In a way, I find basing politeness on whether or not something pleases me almost at odds with my own criteria - it would make politeness something very transactional, almost self-centred, whilst to me its basis should be empathetic. To be honest, I even say thank you when people stop at the pedestrian crossing to let me cross. I know they have to, but I still think it's decent of them so hopefully an extra thank you will just make their day ever so slightly more pleasant.

I do agree with your other point that I am not glorifying former educational principles at all costs. I do however resent the fact that nowadays everyone is treading on eggs for fear of imposing ,contradicting, or offending others. Some of my friends raise their children with an explicit principle that the kids should not be obliged, contradicted, or frustrated, that they should effectively do what they want. I find that attitude unhelpful to the children and irresponsible. Ultimately, much of life is about being contradicted and frustrated by others, sometimes unpleasantly or unfairly. I do not think that maintaining a myth that no such contradiction or frustration is there or ever legitimate helps anyone. I also think that empathy (ie trying to view a situation from the point of view of the other person and not just from your own) is absolutely critical and something that must be educationally encouraged from the very beginning. From that point of view, I think that when parents see their child put his feet on someone else's suitcase, it is not unreasonable for them to ask him to stop and explain that he would not like someone else stepping on his things. To me, that lesson would have actually been more valuable to the child coming from the parents (because it would have been on the basis of empathy) than from me (because by nature, I was an interested party so it may sound that I too was merely defending my own selfish interest). Similarly, when I was a kid and taking the bus from school every day, if kids stay sat when an older person came in, the bus driver would have no hesitation to tell them to stand up as an older person had more need for a seat than them. Again, I think that it is a valuable lesson to teach and that parents who do not deliver it to their children are not only being unhelpful to them and unfair to others but are also under-evaluating their own children as in my experience, most kids are perfectly capable to not only understand but even genuinely embrace such logic if you point it out to them.

Flexible preferences

Regarding thank you's when something hasn't been asked for - I do agree with you - it is desirable and polite, and I also thank drivers at zebra crossings when I have the right of way. My point that I am not making very well is that this is your value system - and my value system coincides with yours here - but it may not be the value system of the recipient of the kind gesture. Who is to say that we should impose our value system over theirs? They have every right to not thank someone for holding a door open for them, if they didn't ask for it. It may be impolite, we might not like it, but tough!

Think of it from their point of view - maybe they have a hangover, maybe they are not feeling well, maybe they are having one of those days they just want to isolate themselves and wear dark glasses and be self-reliant. Maybe they want to open the door themselves. Then someone comes along and opens the door for them and holds it open putting them in a position where they may feel they should say thank you for something they didn't even want - and if they don't then comes the superior sarcastic dig (which I realise you are not arguing about), or rolls eyes or whatever. It may also be that the person being 'kind' is doing it for themselves - to improve their mood to help themselves be validated, even to feel more in control or powerful, to be the benefactor, or so nice - then when they don't get the thanks they think they 'deserve' they can be offended and be critical. Maybe some even want that - the martyrs who are always let down and can feel superior to others as a result (not referring to anyone here to be clear)

So I think even tiny things like this are complicated. Is it necessary an act of kindness, or in fact a selfish act? (unconsciously even/probably) So I am not saying to stop being kind or considerate - of course not, but I think when we have an expectation of gratitude, or worse feel hurt when we don't get it, then something is going awry.

As for empathy - yes, a wonderful quality and so important. In some people it can be a hard thing to truly learn though, or teach. If someone has difficulty empathising then they may have not been empathised with themselves (especially as a child). True empathy is nurtured when we are truly empathised with. And as for kids - as I've said before on here - they need boundaries, loving boundaries, and then they can be free. A child without loving boundaries is not free - either who is let run loose, or who has boundaries imposed on them not for their own benefit, but for the benefit of the parents. Referring back to your OP, looks like boundaries got pretty mixed up with the family on the bus, but you did apply them and the child responded.

DeathSlam

Where better than FT to learn about politeness and tolerance?

T8191

For manners and tolerance, try driving in Jersey. There’s a general (albeit not total) attitude of “After you, Claude” at junctions, crossings or wherever. It helps everyone get along our small and congested roads smoothly and usually avoids lengthy queues .... we all try to keep an eye on how everyone else is getting on in traffic.

Saint4805

Holding a door open for someone goes beyond politeness IMO. It's actually a safety issue in many cases. If you let a big heavy door go and it swings back into the person behind who for whatever reason didn't see it coming or catch it properly then it could cause injury. I always look behind and will hold it open if someone is close behind. If they don't thank me then that's up to them but most people do express gratitude in some form.

rickg523

Are you talking about NEW Jersey?

orbitmic

I agree. Another way of saying it is that whilst politeness has a value as a code (it is still better to have people thanking each other and holding doors even if they don't "mean it" than tell each other to get lost and slam the door in each other's face), it is better to have a politeness that expresses meaning and intention.



Indeed. Ultimately, a small minority of people are genuinely empathetic, and of course, inability to empathise is, in and by itself, an important psychiatric symptom for some pathologies. I'm not suggesting that people can be 'made' empathetic, but what parents can and should do is to point out an empathetic outlook to their kids. If the child has a tendency to be empathetic, then that will resonate with them. There is also a "gymnastic" element to empathy - emphasising that there is a vision of things beyond one's own, that others may perceive them differently, is a form of gymnastic. And yes, this is more about leading by example than just saying things (or only saying things that match the example we give) but that is pretty much true of every aspect of education, so parents who are empathetic with their kids as well as with others will also have a much greater chance of conveying to them a sense of empathy.

T8191

hahahaha ... no, the Original and Real Jersey. The source of Jersey cows, Jersey sweaters, Jersey Royal potatoes and Jersey milk ... the latter exported in large quantities to China, BTW!

We have become accustomed to people in the USA saying “Oh, you’re from Jersey ... I have relatives in Trenton.”

A gift by King Charles II to his loyal supporters during the English Civil War. How nice!!

rickg523

I knew that, because absolutely not one word of your description of driving etiquette on Jersey would have a scintilla of truth if applied to its American namesake!

cruisr

RGS5526

Back in the 1940s and 1950s, when buses still had conductors, children were allowed to travel at half the adult fare on condition that they did not occupy a seat when a full-fare passenger was standing. The condition probably still exists, but without the authority figure of the conductor seems to be largely ignored today.
Some consideration for others still exists, but is not as evident as in the past. My father was somewhat disconcerted when in his sixties he was offered a seat on a but by a young lady. I happened to me not so long ago, but not before I was about ten years older than my father had been.

TemboOne

And "thank you" FrogTastic; your comments are oh so true.

But in this thread and with the use of the "MUM" spelling I think it comes as huge shock to many of us from the "polite side of the pond" that there seems to be small but significant population "over 'ere" who completely abdicate all responsibility for their offspring whenever they leave their homes.

Same goes for the actions OP describe upon boarding the bus out to the aircraft. Sadly, all you can really do is ignore the loud obnoxious parents - for they are really by far worse than their kids.

As for seat stealers; glad to hear you stood your ground. Far too many are too meek to demand in no uncertain terms that such stealers vacate the un-assigned seat.

BUT, for all you folks from civilisation, just remember that when you leave the land of afternoon tea and scones you are saying goodbye to manners, politeness and dignified behaviour!

simons1

Perhaps any self respecting airline or airport should have a squad of access all areas moderators, suitably attired with a copy of 'Debrett's New Guide to Etiquette and Modern Manners' under their arm.

IAN-UK

I'm selfish. I thank driver to stroke ego and encourage their good behaviour. I've spent far too much time in countries where stopping at a crossing is a chore done grudgingly.

Deckard

Driving in the aforementioned NEW Jersey I have been honked at for stopping to allow a pregnant mother with a pram to cross at a crossing. This despite there being signs up saying "Stop for pedestrians - State Law".