If BA are going to improve Premium Economy - what would you include??
Aug 16, 2018, 6:45 pm
#76
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Amsterdam, Asia, UK
Programs: IHG RA (Spire), HH Diamond, MR Platinum, SQ Gold, KLM Gold, BAEC Gold
Posts: 5,072
Will/Do airlines worry about seat evolution for PE going too far ? Airlines will not want to incentivise Businesses and or J class fiers to opt to spend on PE over J, which has happened to some extent regards choosing new J over old F as adequate to fly and immediately work, on a purely seat (not service) comfort basis.
What is the current demographic for PE and who are airlines targetting, is PE predominantly already a captive business expensed flier with no choice? as that will be the driver for improvements other than cosmetic fixes.
The easiest and cheapest differentiation between F/J/PE/Y classes for airlines to give the flier is the 'soft' benefits, service (f+b(no extra cabin crew), checkin, boarding, lounge, luggagge) , plus more privacy of a quieter sub-cabin, as the real estate (plane/cabin size) is fixed. Of course BA could also go for less dense seating with better seats, but would need incease cost per remaining seats.
For me nowadays some decent cocoon/shell business seats are sometimes of a similar comfort to First Class seats 10years ago and in some case the best J seats exceed the poorer old F were 5years ago. Especially if one is ok with the slightly angled versus flat bed J seats that still unfortunately exist out there. So could PE seats end up being as good as the non bed J seats of 10years ago?
When paying myself, I'll pick either Y or J over PE, as I find the PE compromise not worth the premium over Y, ie taking a day flight in Y longhaul Europe-Asia-Europe (or USA-Europe) if I get the Y seat exit row seat leg room, since I won't be sleeping and it is sitting upright leg room I value most on day flights over f+b/ife/lie-flat .
What is the current demographic for PE and who are airlines targetting, is PE predominantly already a captive business expensed flier with no choice? as that will be the driver for improvements other than cosmetic fixes.
The easiest and cheapest differentiation between F/J/PE/Y classes for airlines to give the flier is the 'soft' benefits, service (f+b(no extra cabin crew), checkin, boarding, lounge, luggagge) , plus more privacy of a quieter sub-cabin, as the real estate (plane/cabin size) is fixed. Of course BA could also go for less dense seating with better seats, but would need incease cost per remaining seats.
For me nowadays some decent cocoon/shell business seats are sometimes of a similar comfort to First Class seats 10years ago and in some case the best J seats exceed the poorer old F were 5years ago. Especially if one is ok with the slightly angled versus flat bed J seats that still unfortunately exist out there. So could PE seats end up being as good as the non bed J seats of 10years ago?
When paying myself, I'll pick either Y or J over PE, as I find the PE compromise not worth the premium over Y, ie taking a day flight in Y longhaul Europe-Asia-Europe (or USA-Europe) if I get the Y seat exit row seat leg room, since I won't be sleeping and it is sitting upright leg room I value most on day flights over f+b/ife/lie-flat .
Aug 16, 2018, 7:15 pm
#77
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 4,280
The good:
- larger seat and more legroom (and a leg rest if you are not in the bulkhead), larger tray table
- better headphones (same as that of J) vs Y - but not of Bose quality
- more miles if you are an FB member
- (I believe Lounge access for the EU sectors) - not sure on this as I by status have lounge access
The bad:
- after 2-3 hours of seating, it's feel pretty uncomfortable as there is no cushioning at all (if you're lucky when there are empty seat, you use the additional blanket as padding). - though I read that on the 787, the seats are better (yet to try)
- difficult to sleep in even after at it's maximum recline (the seat basically slides fwd in it's shell)
- food is more economy like than premium ( for the same business class meal as what is offered by BA for the 1st meal, you have to pay for this on Air France)
- plastic cutlery and plastic containers (they basically empty the contents into the waste when collecting your tray)
- they do have 1 glass, but this is mainly for the pretense - the cabin crew basically never uses it and just gives you the normal plastic cup - they will collect it like precious goods after meal service
- toilets on certain aircraft at to the back in coach
- yes you do get an amenity kit - but it's very basic
- same cabin crews serving Y are serving PE - @ Delta, this is a dedicated set of crew - means not bothered (unless the crew is good in general)
For the price you pay it is just not reflected back in what you get back - at least at BA, it does feel slightly premium.
The only reason I still fly and tolerate it is because of the FB miles and not much other options within Skyteam - though now with Delta rolling out Premium Select, this will become more and more of my choice.
Cheers!
Aug 16, 2018, 7:50 pm
#78
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: SIN
Programs: BA, CX, SQ, Accor, IHG
Posts: 95
My 2 cents- the newer BA WTP (on the A380 and 777) is ok, but only ok no better. I'm short @ 5'6" and the flip down foot rest is just annoying and useless. Agree re previous comments about the person in front at max recline, but then I would like to max recline myself and reducing that dilutes any want to fly it at all.
As others have said- JL PE in the shell seat is great. Best I have flown, soft product as well as hard and excellent service by the crew. CX fitted a modified PEY with leg rests at every seat in place of a leg rest only at the front row and useless flip down foot rests in the rest of the cabin (after a large MPC survey asking about PEY about 2 years ago). It's now very good, on all 77W I have been on, and the refined version on the newer A350's is better still. PEY only loo on the 77W too. Service I like and no shortage of food/drinks at any time.
Why BA persist with the ancient WTP on the 744 and some 777's instead of replacing? I would guess its down to these aircraft retirements making the change not worthwhile.
Thankfully, am based in SIN and these seats from long ago don't appear on the 777 and 380 used here!
On a slight tangent- I'm aware of various MNC's changing travel policies to stipulate PEY at most instead of J, so I would imagine this will mean more attention needs to be paid by the airlines to business travellers who will find themselves in PEY instead of J, and so a sharpening of the PEY offer is in order. Something new is required (in the sector, not just BA) and BA would do well to consider sticking the current high density CW seat into the WTP cabin when they up their game in CW. Differentiate by offering more space and privacy in CW, better food offering, car service, bedding, better drinks and so on. Make WTP an economy soft product with the current ying yang CW seat, no bedding, no special food, no special drinks, same sparse crew allocation. Call it PEY/WTP and you'd have the aforementioned business travellers queuing up I should think.
Will never happen. However, flat beds in business was never going to happen either, till BA did it. There's a thought.
As others have said- JL PE in the shell seat is great. Best I have flown, soft product as well as hard and excellent service by the crew. CX fitted a modified PEY with leg rests at every seat in place of a leg rest only at the front row and useless flip down foot rests in the rest of the cabin (after a large MPC survey asking about PEY about 2 years ago). It's now very good, on all 77W I have been on, and the refined version on the newer A350's is better still. PEY only loo on the 77W too. Service I like and no shortage of food/drinks at any time.
Why BA persist with the ancient WTP on the 744 and some 777's instead of replacing? I would guess its down to these aircraft retirements making the change not worthwhile.
Thankfully, am based in SIN and these seats from long ago don't appear on the 777 and 380 used here!
On a slight tangent- I'm aware of various MNC's changing travel policies to stipulate PEY at most instead of J, so I would imagine this will mean more attention needs to be paid by the airlines to business travellers who will find themselves in PEY instead of J, and so a sharpening of the PEY offer is in order. Something new is required (in the sector, not just BA) and BA would do well to consider sticking the current high density CW seat into the WTP cabin when they up their game in CW. Differentiate by offering more space and privacy in CW, better food offering, car service, bedding, better drinks and so on. Make WTP an economy soft product with the current ying yang CW seat, no bedding, no special food, no special drinks, same sparse crew allocation. Call it PEY/WTP and you'd have the aforementioned business travellers queuing up I should think.
Will never happen. However, flat beds in business was never going to happen either, till BA did it. There's a thought.
Aug 17, 2018, 12:51 am
#79
Join Date: May 2018
Programs: BAEC Silver
Posts: 219
Using old CW seats in WTP is a nice idea, but I reckon it would be significantly more expensive for a ticket.
The bulk of the cost isn't the pillow, blanket and meal - it's the physical space taken up on the plane. All things being equal, if you take out 40 WTP seats and replace with 20 CW seats, everyone needs to pay more or less double the fare.
The bulk of the cost isn't the pillow, blanket and meal - it's the physical space taken up on the plane. All things being equal, if you take out 40 WTP seats and replace with 20 CW seats, everyone needs to pay more or less double the fare.
Aug 17, 2018, 1:10 am
#80
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: London
Programs: Thai Royal Orchid Plus Gold, BA Silver, Alitalia Freccia Alata
Posts: 348
Will/Do airlines worry about seat evolution for PE going too far ? Airlines will not want to incentivise Businesses and or J class fiers to opt to spend on PE over J, which has happened to some extent regards choosing new J over old F as adequate to fly and immediately work, on a purely seat (not service) comfort basis.
What is the current demographic for PE and who are airlines targetting, is PE predominantly already a captive business expensed flier with no choice? as that will be the driver for improvements other than cosmetic fixes.
The easiest and cheapest differentiation between F/J/PE/Y classes for airlines to give the flier is the 'soft' benefits, service (f+b(no extra cabin crew), checkin, boarding, lounge, luggagge) , plus more privacy of a quieter sub-cabin, as the real estate (plane/cabin size) is fixed. Of course BA could also go for less dense seating with better seats, but would need incease cost per remaining seats.
For me nowadays some decent cocoon/shell business seats are sometimes of a similar comfort to First Class seats 10years ago and in some case the best J seats exceed the poorer old F were 5years ago. Especially if one is ok with the slightly angled versus flat bed J seats that still unfortunately exist out there. So could PE seats end up being as good as the non bed J seats of 10years ago?
When paying myself, I'll pick either Y or J over PE, as I find the PE compromise not worth the premium over Y, ie taking a day flight in Y longhaul Europe-Asia-Europe (or USA-Europe) if I get the Y seat exit row seat leg room, since I won't be sleeping and it is sitting upright leg room I value most on day flights over f+b/ife/lie-flat .
What is the current demographic for PE and who are airlines targetting, is PE predominantly already a captive business expensed flier with no choice? as that will be the driver for improvements other than cosmetic fixes.
The easiest and cheapest differentiation between F/J/PE/Y classes for airlines to give the flier is the 'soft' benefits, service (f+b(no extra cabin crew), checkin, boarding, lounge, luggagge) , plus more privacy of a quieter sub-cabin, as the real estate (plane/cabin size) is fixed. Of course BA could also go for less dense seating with better seats, but would need incease cost per remaining seats.
For me nowadays some decent cocoon/shell business seats are sometimes of a similar comfort to First Class seats 10years ago and in some case the best J seats exceed the poorer old F were 5years ago. Especially if one is ok with the slightly angled versus flat bed J seats that still unfortunately exist out there. So could PE seats end up being as good as the non bed J seats of 10years ago?
When paying myself, I'll pick either Y or J over PE, as I find the PE compromise not worth the premium over Y, ie taking a day flight in Y longhaul Europe-Asia-Europe (or USA-Europe) if I get the Y seat exit row seat leg room, since I won't be sleeping and it is sitting upright leg room I value most on day flights over f+b/ife/lie-flat .
Furthermore, point, the current biggest differentiating factor between J and PE on any airline is lieflat seats (except TG). Yeah, maybe some people find it OK to sleep on a PE seat, but from a perceptions/marketing perspective a bed is still a bed and not an angled seat. Until they are able to bring lieflat beds to PE then J will always be justifiable, i.e. “the company needs to expense me for this as an exception to the policy because it's the only way I could ensure I am refreshed for my important client meeting fresh off the plane”.
Which brings me to your last point - will old CW seats eventually come to PE? That's an interesting possibility. I haven't done the maths but would presume current CW hardware is somewhat less dense than WTP. So in order to maintain overall revenue per flight, do BA reduce WT no. of seats seats or reduce density there? Also goes back to competition - if other airlines come up with some innovation that is far superior to current PE offerings - ex-LHR (which is after all BA's most important market) - then BA might bring CW seats to WTP to stay ahead of the game. But then we go back to the question if pricing it appropriately so that it doesn't cannibalize CW yet makes sense as a much more significant step up from WT - but too close to CW and more importantly J on other carriers then people might as well fly in J (as might be the case for TG PE). It's a tricky balancing act.
Final thought - CW must be one of the densest J layouts out there (again i haven't done the Marth) so if anyone is going to do it I think it could be BA.
Aug 17, 2018, 8:16 pm
#81
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Toronto
Programs: BA Exec Club - Demoted to Bronze and re-promoted to Silver alongside AC Elite 50K (gold) in 2022
Posts: 393
the breadth of views is interesting for sure. I only nap on flights in PE and so the soft product is as important to me as the seat. I disagree with one contributor in that I would pay for PE but NOT for club, unless the price in the summer is good or I'm chasing TPs. I don't expect flat beds on PE - it's not an economy product! but I don't expect slop, plastic for drinks, and a rubbish second meal.
I can see the gap widening between BA PE and say QF, VS or some of the far east carriers. I hear from friends in N America that AA PE is better than BA. As it's a small cabin, they don't struggle to fill it. I also have friends who are gold and buy PE as per company policy but expect regular upgrades to club.
My main point is for 10 or 20 quid a PAX, they could use old club bedding, a sparking wine welcome drink both ways, provide glass for drinks, hot bacon bap, and a decent first meal. If they are to keep the service as is, then they need to rename it as after the first two hours of any LH flight - it is no longer premium economy other than the seat (which if BA could change mid fllight - they would!!)
The BA PE product has remained the same and even had the cuts - ie no pretzels, 2nd meal reduction etc
Given their 4 star skytrax rating is under threat, they need to address all classes
I can see the gap widening between BA PE and say QF, VS or some of the far east carriers. I hear from friends in N America that AA PE is better than BA. As it's a small cabin, they don't struggle to fill it. I also have friends who are gold and buy PE as per company policy but expect regular upgrades to club.
My main point is for 10 or 20 quid a PAX, they could use old club bedding, a sparking wine welcome drink both ways, provide glass for drinks, hot bacon bap, and a decent first meal. If they are to keep the service as is, then they need to rename it as after the first two hours of any LH flight - it is no longer premium economy other than the seat (which if BA could change mid fllight - they would!!)
The BA PE product has remained the same and even had the cuts - ie no pretzels, 2nd meal reduction etc
Given their 4 star skytrax rating is under threat, they need to address all classes
Last edited by Mikey Mike Mike; Aug 17, 2018 at 8:20 pm Reason: bad typo
Aug 18, 2018, 1:38 am
#82
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Jakarta
Programs: SQ Gold, BA Bronze,GA Silver
Posts: 49
I often fly PE on the CGK - HKG - LHR Route. So one leg on CX and the second on BA (either 77W or A380) and tend to alternate between buying tickets from CX or BA depending on the price. I have also flown on PE on SQ and ANA on other occasions.
My choice of flying PE is normally due to the fact that I have to work on arriving in London and PE just lets me get that much more rest. I'm not particularly big, but too often if I am in an aisle seat in Economy, someone is going to end up hitting me in the middle of the night. Getting served and having everything cleared up first just means that much more time to sleep, and I tend to find allows me to go use the toilets before there is a queue. The A380 PE cabin, especially if you can get the window seats is certainly ideal.
That being said, I would echo many of the earlier comments but if the were to improve:
- 2nd meal should be improved
- better bedding
- A couple of extra places to keep small items like phones, etc. (CX has a good solution for this)
- An actual footrest from the main seat, vs that silly little bar that just gets in your way.
- Just actually having better service/response from the cabin crew vs economy if you need something - this may just be a general gripe about responsiveness of their crew vs CX/SQ/ANA/GA that I normally fly with. Certainly on CX the one crew assigned to PE is there pretty quickly every time the call button is pressed.
My choice of flying PE is normally due to the fact that I have to work on arriving in London and PE just lets me get that much more rest. I'm not particularly big, but too often if I am in an aisle seat in Economy, someone is going to end up hitting me in the middle of the night. Getting served and having everything cleared up first just means that much more time to sleep, and I tend to find allows me to go use the toilets before there is a queue. The A380 PE cabin, especially if you can get the window seats is certainly ideal.
That being said, I would echo many of the earlier comments but if the were to improve:
- 2nd meal should be improved
- better bedding
- A couple of extra places to keep small items like phones, etc. (CX has a good solution for this)
- An actual footrest from the main seat, vs that silly little bar that just gets in your way.
- Just actually having better service/response from the cabin crew vs economy if you need something - this may just be a general gripe about responsiveness of their crew vs CX/SQ/ANA/GA that I normally fly with. Certainly on CX the one crew assigned to PE is there pretty quickly every time the call button is pressed.
Aug 18, 2018, 4:15 am
#84
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Toronto
Programs: BA Silver, VIPorter, VIA Preference: Privilčge, Air Canada Aeroplan
Posts: 369
My last few WTP flights have included the cheese, pretzels and magnum. But I agree second meal leaves a lot to be desired and the brekfast pretzel is inedible. Fix those and the welcome drink and I'd be happy.
Incudentally I just had one of Leon's delicious brekfast pots - something like this would be a great morning option on a flight.
Incudentally I just had one of Leon's delicious brekfast pots - something like this would be a great morning option on a flight.
Aug 18, 2018, 4:19 am
#85
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Kyiv, Ukraine
Programs: Mucci, BA Gold, TK Elite, HHonors Lifetime Diamond
Posts: 7,691
I don't see how. The seat is pretty much the same (in fact, it does not recline as far as the WTP seat does). No pre-departure drinks, garbage wine, and the same food concept - 2 main courses from business class (usually poultry/meat and pasta). AA serves wine in plastic cups which I found strange as the tray does have a real glass. I did love the very nice pillow and blanket on AA. However, even the soft product differences are so negligible that I would not take them into account when selecting flights and would prioritize schedule and convenience.
Aug 18, 2018, 5:11 am
#86
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Brisbane
Programs: BAEC Blue/Bronze, Krisflyer, Qantas
Posts: 419
I think Premium Economy serves its purpose..
Priced as an affordable upgrade to many BA travellers and is 2 seats wide rather than 3 or 4, so appeals to affluent couples. USB charging and cubby hole on A380 are nice, perhaps preferential wifi would be good for next year.
Limited number of seats means many WTP get introduced to Club World. I believe many of these customers recgonise the value of Club after their first experience and some can afford the extra or get into Avios and so WTP effectively contributes to the profitability of Club in the longer term.
I don’t feel it needs any improvements beyond food. I wonder if there are tests for meal versatility - eg what does it taste like if it’s been over-cooked, under-cooked, left out to dry out, somehow ended up watery. Some of the meals would be lovely if they had been made in lab conditions. Dry crunchy microwavy chewy bread is my pet hate.
Priced as an affordable upgrade to many BA travellers and is 2 seats wide rather than 3 or 4, so appeals to affluent couples. USB charging and cubby hole on A380 are nice, perhaps preferential wifi would be good for next year.
Limited number of seats means many WTP get introduced to Club World. I believe many of these customers recgonise the value of Club after their first experience and some can afford the extra or get into Avios and so WTP effectively contributes to the profitability of Club in the longer term.
I don’t feel it needs any improvements beyond food. I wonder if there are tests for meal versatility - eg what does it taste like if it’s been over-cooked, under-cooked, left out to dry out, somehow ended up watery. Some of the meals would be lovely if they had been made in lab conditions. Dry crunchy microwavy chewy bread is my pet hate.
Aug 18, 2018, 12:02 pm
#87
Join Date: Nov 2017
Programs: BAEC, AerClub
Posts: 134
As I have my first WTP experience coming up in October (to LAS), I am following this thread with interest, and a little dread. I usually do upper deck J to LAS, but the budgets of my travelling companions rules it out this trip.
One question/clarification regarding the breakfast offering:
I seem to recall reading somewhere on this forum that a "proper" hot breakfast was served in WTP if travelling from west coast USA. Is this correct?
All I see on this thread is mention of some horrid bagel/pretzel type thing being served.
One question/clarification regarding the breakfast offering:
I seem to recall reading somewhere on this forum that a "proper" hot breakfast was served in WTP if travelling from west coast USA. Is this correct?
All I see on this thread is mention of some horrid bagel/pretzel type thing being served.
Aug 18, 2018, 1:05 pm
#88
Suspended
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,246
As I have my first WTP experience coming up in October (to LAS),....One question/clarification regarding the breakfast offering:
I seem to recall reading somewhere on this forum that a "proper" hot breakfast was served in WTP if travelling from west coast USA. Is this correct?....
I seem to recall reading somewhere on this forum that a "proper" hot breakfast was served in WTP if travelling from west coast USA. Is this correct?....
Aug 18, 2018, 1:12 pm
#89
Suspended
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 4,477
[joking intended with some truth in it]
One of the best Business Class in the world: BA First
One of the best Premier Economy Class in the world: BA Club World
One of the best short haul Economy Class in the world: BA Club Europe
[/joking intended with some truth in it]
One of the best Business Class in the world: BA First
One of the best Premier Economy Class in the world: BA Club World
One of the best short haul Economy Class in the world: BA Club Europe
[/joking intended with some truth in it]