Help regarding total HHA mess up please!!
Jul 14, 2018, 2:07 am
#1
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: North East
Posts: 207
Help regarding total HHA mess up please!!
Hi all, after some advice for my brother please.... (long post sorry!)
He’s in a bit of a mess in his HHA at present- he wanted to use his 241 for he and a mate, so booked as soon as availability was seen, at which point they weren’t in a HHA so had to use his avios alone. He then created a HHA and his mate joined it.
He wanted to then make a booking for next year, using another 241, for he and a different friend, and wanted to use the full 100k that his mate from the first booking owed him (and the exact amount he brought to his HHA).... so the new friend joined the HHA, and my brother made the new outbound booking when available, this used the exact 100k that was in the HHA from his mate. That person then wanted to leave the HHA in order to go back to his family one, at this point the return for the new booking for the following year had not been made. He then left the HHA. My brother then called up at T-355 to add the return for the new booking a year ahead, having transferred in the exact required amount from Amex MR. However, despite succeeding with the booking, no avios were deducted. 48hrs later his balance showed as -XXX avios in his HHA.... he phoned up and was told the avios from the Outbound had been refunded, and then a fresh debit taken for the new total amount.... no refund showed in his HHA.... he got his mate to check and the 100k refund was actually showing in his account in his family’s HHA...!! Hence my brothers account shows as -XXX avios balance. (Actually more avios were even deducted than they should have - as for a long haul F booking they’ve deducted for the domestic connections also bizarrely)
[Note- both bookings are in F]
He has called You First 3 time’s to try to rectify this -
1st call- was told that a case was created and would go to the back office to be rectified, and that his friend should not have re-joined his old HHA (which is true, but the BA IT allowed him to leave/join/leave/join HHA’s in immediate succession)...
2nd call- a week later - told was still with back office
Then received a ridiculous email response saying that the BAEC service team do not handle avios queries, and again, contact your contact centre ?!?!
3rd call- was told by a very rude lady in the Manchester You First office that he must be totally mistaken, and he does not understand the BA processes, as there is no way the avios would have been refunded to his friend, who was not in his HHA at the time, and who was not on the booking... when quite clearly it has done.
Can anyone now advise on what to do please....
1) it seems a lost cause trying to get the BA agents to understand and action this - to move the 100k from his mate’s account back to his to negate the -ve balance
2) he is therefore trying to think outside the box as to how to get his 100k back from his mate- Would this work: if he pulls all of his avios out of his BAEC account and then the mate rejoins his HHA with the refunded 100k. He will then make a booking (in my brothers name) that will drain that balance. He won't be using the booking however. After the mate again leaves his HHA, he will cancel the booking. Will the Avios go back to his BAEC (the mate who is no longer in his HHA) or will they go to my brother and anyone else that happens to be in my HHA? Ie is what happened the first time just total bad luck, or the way refunds with ex-HHA members are done??
3) If they will go back to him, do you know any other way by brother can get the 100k Avios back from him?
If anyone could shed light it would be greatly appreciated, thank you!!
He’s in a bit of a mess in his HHA at present- he wanted to use his 241 for he and a mate, so booked as soon as availability was seen, at which point they weren’t in a HHA so had to use his avios alone. He then created a HHA and his mate joined it.
He wanted to then make a booking for next year, using another 241, for he and a different friend, and wanted to use the full 100k that his mate from the first booking owed him (and the exact amount he brought to his HHA).... so the new friend joined the HHA, and my brother made the new outbound booking when available, this used the exact 100k that was in the HHA from his mate. That person then wanted to leave the HHA in order to go back to his family one, at this point the return for the new booking for the following year had not been made. He then left the HHA. My brother then called up at T-355 to add the return for the new booking a year ahead, having transferred in the exact required amount from Amex MR. However, despite succeeding with the booking, no avios were deducted. 48hrs later his balance showed as -XXX avios in his HHA.... he phoned up and was told the avios from the Outbound had been refunded, and then a fresh debit taken for the new total amount.... no refund showed in his HHA.... he got his mate to check and the 100k refund was actually showing in his account in his family’s HHA...!! Hence my brothers account shows as -XXX avios balance. (Actually more avios were even deducted than they should have - as for a long haul F booking they’ve deducted for the domestic connections also bizarrely)
[Note- both bookings are in F]
He has called You First 3 time’s to try to rectify this -
1st call- was told that a case was created and would go to the back office to be rectified, and that his friend should not have re-joined his old HHA (which is true, but the BA IT allowed him to leave/join/leave/join HHA’s in immediate succession)...
2nd call- a week later - told was still with back office
Then received a ridiculous email response saying that the BAEC service team do not handle avios queries, and again, contact your contact centre ?!?!
3rd call- was told by a very rude lady in the Manchester You First office that he must be totally mistaken, and he does not understand the BA processes, as there is no way the avios would have been refunded to his friend, who was not in his HHA at the time, and who was not on the booking... when quite clearly it has done.
Can anyone now advise on what to do please....
1) it seems a lost cause trying to get the BA agents to understand and action this - to move the 100k from his mate’s account back to his to negate the -ve balance
2) he is therefore trying to think outside the box as to how to get his 100k back from his mate- Would this work: if he pulls all of his avios out of his BAEC account and then the mate rejoins his HHA with the refunded 100k. He will then make a booking (in my brothers name) that will drain that balance. He won't be using the booking however. After the mate again leaves his HHA, he will cancel the booking. Will the Avios go back to his BAEC (the mate who is no longer in his HHA) or will they go to my brother and anyone else that happens to be in my HHA? Ie is what happened the first time just total bad luck, or the way refunds with ex-HHA members are done??
3) If they will go back to him, do you know any other way by brother can get the 100k Avios back from him?
If anyone could shed light it would be greatly appreciated, thank you!!
Jul 14, 2018, 2:15 am
#2
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At first sight, it looks like either your brother and/or his second friend are unfortunately using Household accounts in an unauthorised way which makes him very vulnerable where things go wrong as is the case here. Household accounts are only for people who live together is the same address so unless your brother and both his friends live together and friend no2 genuinely also lives with his family at least one of the two HHAs doesn’t make sense here.
unfortunately, this will make any discussion to rectify the issue of recredited avios potentially very
awkward. Calling You First is definitely the wrong thing to do, they have no competence at all on avios, so it is indeed the Baec service centre which they should contact .
unfortunately, this will make any discussion to rectify the issue of recredited avios potentially very
awkward. Calling You First is definitely the wrong thing to do, they have no competence at all on avios, so it is indeed the Baec service centre which they should contact .
Jul 14, 2018, 2:26 am
#3
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,578
On top of that, the suggestion that the other ex-household account member "owes" aviois would indicate a breach of another clause
Originally Posted by BAEC
22.2. Any purported purchase, sale, transfer, unauthorised use (including bartering), procurement or redemption of Avios points issued or awarded to another person or any other use of Avios points contrary to these Terms and Conditions will constitute a fundamental breach by the Member of these Terms and Conditions and the Conditions of Use.
Jul 14, 2018, 3:16 am
#4
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
Well based on what you have said (about different 'mates', people owing each other Avios etc) it won't take BA long to work out that you are mis-using the Household Account(s). I would say there is a high risk that you will end up with all the accounts being closed or suspended for investigation.
Shame, but it just seems a total waste of BA resources.
Shame, but it just seems a total waste of BA resources.
Jul 14, 2018, 3:25 am
#5
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This is not the first case here of people being 'creative' with HHAs, especially with people apparently living at different addresses being included.
Not a good idea, IMO, and this case shows the potential for BA coming back hard on those involved.
'Friends & Family' is a safer route, albeit with different T&C, but at least it's what it says on the tin instead of misapplying the concept of HHA.
Not a good idea, IMO, and this case shows the potential for BA coming back hard on those involved.
'Friends & Family' is a safer route, albeit with different T&C, but at least it's what it says on the tin instead of misapplying the concept of HHA.
Jul 14, 2018, 6:31 am
#6
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Do OP, both mates, and one of the mate's family all reside together?
Before contacting BAEC, OP should carefully review the terms & conditions and then assure that everything he did clearly meets the requirements of those terms. If not, leave this alone and hope that this is the end of it.
Before contacting BAEC, OP should carefully review the terms & conditions and then assure that everything he did clearly meets the requirements of those terms. If not, leave this alone and hope that this is the end of it.
Jul 14, 2018, 8:55 am
#7
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In other circumstances, one solution would be for the first friend to make the booking for the OP next time the OP wants to travel on an award ticket, using the refunded 100,000 Avios. But that won't work so well if the first friend is now back in a HHA with the family he actually lives with, as it'll cause Avios to be deducted from all the accounts in that HHA.
Jul 14, 2018, 9:53 am
#8
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Globaliser, I’m not suggesting F&F is a close parallel to HHA. It does however off a route for moving Avios around for GCH (at no cost). Indeed, I have recently done that with F&F BiL (not co-resident) to keep his Avios alive ... pending him using them for a flight by us!
Jul 14, 2018, 8:04 pm
#9
Original Poster
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: North East
Posts: 207
Well thank you all for the speedy replies...
to answer a couple of the points raised: my brother and both mates currently all rent together in London. Neither he nor 1 of the other guys have ever been in a HHA before, but the 1 other mate who left his to join with my brother, and then went back to his, obviously was/is in another HHA. That’s with his own family home.
it seems like at least that part of it is not by the rule book...
i didn’t really know about F&F accounts to advise them of that, and I don’t think any of them looked into it- so they are essentially HHA’s but where each member can have a different residential address?
I think that a couple of simple steps they could have taken would have avoided this problem, as at the end of the day they wanted to pool their avios to make bookings together. It is bizarre that after a return was added to an outbound booking, the initial cost was refunded (to the member outside of the HHA), and then the overall amount re-debited, rather than just the extra cost of the return debited...
now that this this problem has arisen im not sure how they can resolve it... can anyone please advise on the following:
if there is a -ve avios balance in someone’s account- will all the bookings booked be cancelled? As at present they show as confirmed (checking on other Amadeus search’s too, not just BAEC),
any other thoughts on how they can mitigate this problem? - appreciate they should not have had the 1 mate joining/leaving/joining his HHA’s, but aside from that, I think everything has been done in good faith... with appropriate avios amounts earned and combined with 241’s...
many thanks
to answer a couple of the points raised: my brother and both mates currently all rent together in London. Neither he nor 1 of the other guys have ever been in a HHA before, but the 1 other mate who left his to join with my brother, and then went back to his, obviously was/is in another HHA. That’s with his own family home.
it seems like at least that part of it is not by the rule book...
i didn’t really know about F&F accounts to advise them of that, and I don’t think any of them looked into it- so they are essentially HHA’s but where each member can have a different residential address?
I think that a couple of simple steps they could have taken would have avoided this problem, as at the end of the day they wanted to pool their avios to make bookings together. It is bizarre that after a return was added to an outbound booking, the initial cost was refunded (to the member outside of the HHA), and then the overall amount re-debited, rather than just the extra cost of the return debited...
now that this this problem has arisen im not sure how they can resolve it... can anyone please advise on the following:
if there is a -ve avios balance in someone’s account- will all the bookings booked be cancelled? As at present they show as confirmed (checking on other Amadeus search’s too, not just BAEC),
any other thoughts on how they can mitigate this problem? - appreciate they should not have had the 1 mate joining/leaving/joining his HHA’s, but aside from that, I think everything has been done in good faith... with appropriate avios amounts earned and combined with 241’s...
many thanks
Jul 14, 2018, 8:53 pm
#10
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Putting avios together can only be done by single households through a HHA, which also comes with lots of constraints including not being able to use 2-4-1 etc with anyone outside the household.
Avios transfer is also possible for a fee and with given constraints, but again not if you are in a HHA.
In terms of cancelling and rebooking not at all, it is completely standard. Your brother had one 2-4-1 so effectively when he called to add a return his one way was cancelled to release the voucher and a new return booked using it. It may not be what the customers think they are doing in their minds but it is what the agents are doing in the system to achieve what the customer asked.
In terms of refunding the 'individual outside of the HHA', with due respect, I think you are missing the nature of the HHA. You seem to think of it as a facility for individuals to share/pool their individual accounts together, but it isn't that. "A" HHA is precisely that: one account, which belongs to a household. For all practical purposes, entering a HHA makes you lose much of the individual nature of the accounts.
Fast forward to the 'divorce' with a member of the HHA moving out or even rejoining or creating a new HHA and an award being cancelled. How is BA to decide where to refund the avios since the household configuration that originally booked does not exist any more and is now split into two. There is no obvious way, and your brother and friend A HHA1 was not any more entitled to the refund than friend B and his HHA2.
any other thoughts on how they can mitigate this problem? - appreciate they should not have had the 1 mate joining/leaving/joining his HHA’s, but aside from that, I think everything has been done in good faith... with appropriate avios amounts earned and combined with 241’s...
To be honest, it is questionable whether BAEC should technically even have allowed the cancelling/rebooking in this particular case given the change of Household in the meantime. If they think all has been done in good faith the best option is for the person "wrongly" credited to call their service centre to explain the situation and ask if it can be resolved. Calling You First is totally irrelevant, and even your brother calling is not useful since it is better for the person with the credit to say that he should not have it rather than someone with a debit saying they want/should have someone else's account's avios.
Finally, in case that penny has not dropped yet, every time you encourage "thinking outside the box" or similar, you are landing your brother into a little bit more trouble and making his situation worse. Whether things were done "in good faith" or not, it's fair to say that to BAEC, they will not look like it right now. The more people keep joining and unjoining with bookings made under one configuration of the HHA to be refunded to another, to BAEC, they look more suspicious and dishonest and further increase the risk of someone's account being closed altogether and avios seized.