Heathrow Third Runway Approved by Parliament
Jun 19, 2019, 12:33 pm
#181
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What is clear from the timeline is that the airport wants flight numbers to grow before the third runway opens and that serious terminal capacity won’t follow until after the the runway opens. So in the medium term pressure on all the current terminals will increased with this plan.
Jun 19, 2019, 12:36 pm
#182
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Jun 19, 2019, 12:42 pm
#183
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The website mentions the expansion of T5B and T5C to the north and south and a reconfiguration of space in T5A to increase capacity. However this isn’t mentioned in the consultation document itself or in the timeline.
I’m speculating that this involves building out B&C to the extent originally envisaged and finding reconfiguring office space BA have vacated in T5A, as has mentioned in other threads. Maybe the unused lounge space in T5C might even be put into use?
What is clear from the timeline is that the airport wants flight numbers to grow before the third runway opens and that serious terminal capacity won’t follow until after the the runway opens. So in the medium term pressure on all the current terminals will increased with this plan.
I think it is a shame that the transit (presumably airside) between all the terminals except T4 that was floated in previous plans has been dropped. So even if T5/T5X/T5XN becomes a hub for one alliance a transfer from say T5C to T5XN will remain fiddly and probably involve buses.
I’m speculating that this involves building out B&C to the extent originally envisaged and finding reconfiguring office space BA have vacated in T5A, as has mentioned in other threads. Maybe the unused lounge space in T5C might even be put into use?
What is clear from the timeline is that the airport wants flight numbers to grow before the third runway opens and that serious terminal capacity won’t follow until after the the runway opens. So in the medium term pressure on all the current terminals will increased with this plan.
I think it is a shame that the transit (presumably airside) between all the terminals except T4 that was floated in previous plans has been dropped. So even if T5/T5X/T5XN becomes a hub for one alliance a transfer from say T5C to T5XN will remain fiddly and probably involve buses.
Me reading of the plan is basically "lets build the runway first, before the government change their mind again. Then we'll sort out some type of order for doing the terminal work plan later (if we have any money left)"
Jun 19, 2019, 3:44 pm
#184
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Will Boris have any impact on this? (It’s clear he will win the leadership election, I’d eat my hat if he loses it now).
Last night on the BBC debate he was his usual vocal self about the environmental impact, he strongly agrees with campaigners that this expansion isn’t going to have a good impact on the surrounding area.
Anyhow, on the new PM will they be able to stall or block any of this, at this stage?
Last night on the BBC debate he was his usual vocal self about the environmental impact, he strongly agrees with campaigners that this expansion isn’t going to have a good impact on the surrounding area.
Anyhow, on the new PM will they be able to stall or block any of this, at this stage?
Jun 19, 2019, 3:58 pm
#185
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Boris's thinking on LHR expansion took a different turn just before he was selected as Tory candidate and then elected as MP for Uxbridge & South Ruislip where many airport workers live (and vote).
Also the 3rdLHR runway was approved last year by a vote (that he deliberately missed) in Parliament that approved the general plan. He would have to over turn that vote. And the way things are at present that is unlikely to happen because it was approved 415-119
Also the 3rdLHR runway was approved last year by a vote (that he deliberately missed) in Parliament that approved the general plan. He would have to over turn that vote. And the way things are at present that is unlikely to happen because it was approved 415-119
Jun 26, 2019, 11:15 am
#186
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How are the additional slots created assigned to airlines? & Assuming that BA gets a substantial number of new slots - At which point would BA need to order new aircraft, once groundworks start would they get the deliveries before it became operational?
Jun 26, 2019, 11:53 am
#187
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It is likely that the UK would prefer an auction based system as it has the prospect of generating significant funds, but reform of this directive is stalled.
The UK could still be subject to the directive even if it leaves the EU. Even in the event of No Deal the May government’s policy is to seek a side deal over aviation rules (although this would breach the EU’s no cherry picking principle, so what would happen in practice is anyone’s guess).
In the event that regulation no longer applies, the UK could develop its own system within the IATA guidance. However I wouldn’t expect that system to automatically favour BA. The government will want to increase competition at Heathrow and EasyJet in particular will be able to lobby strongly for its position.
More on the background to this here: https://researchbriefings.files.parl...88/SN00488.pdf
Jun 26, 2019, 12:49 pm
#188
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Aug 7, 2019, 8:44 am
#190
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i understand the inertia in banking. They are basically all the same
there is also inertia among BA passengers however two things would assist.
First do something about BA stranglehold at LHR. Their dominance has meant higher fares and lowers standards. I would start by ending the commercial agreements that exist with AA IB JL etc and make them compete properly. This includes in the field of frequent flyer points. The U.K. is ill served by the BA programme and it’s exorbitant fees, even when the operating carrier has none.
End the monopoly on U.K routes and open up LHR to 5th freedom. Competition will drive an improvement in standards both on the ground and in the air.
BA will not change if that change is not forced upon them. How many times do people have to have their travel plans ruined because BA will not invest in modern IT.
I only hope that they taken to cleaners on EU261 claims. This is not extraordinary, it’s almost common place and needs to be sorted.
there is also inertia among BA passengers however two things would assist.
First do something about BA stranglehold at LHR. Their dominance has meant higher fares and lowers standards. I would start by ending the commercial agreements that exist with AA IB JL etc and make them compete properly. This includes in the field of frequent flyer points. The U.K. is ill served by the BA programme and it’s exorbitant fees, even when the operating carrier has none.
End the monopoly on U.K routes and open up LHR to 5th freedom. Competition will drive an improvement in standards both on the ground and in the air.
BA will not change if that change is not forced upon them. How many times do people have to have their travel plans ruined because BA will not invest in modern IT.
I only hope that they taken to cleaners on EU261 claims. This is not extraordinary, it’s almost common place and needs to be sorted.
Last edited by Prospero; Aug 7, 2019 at 11:48 am Reason: Post moved into this thread
Aug 7, 2019, 9:25 am
#191
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 7,237
i understand the inertia in banking. They are basically all the same
there is also inertia among BA passengers however two things would assist.
First do something about BA stranglehold at LHR. Their dominance has meant higher fares and lowers standards. I would start by ending the commercial agreements that exist with AA IB JL etc and make them compete properly. This includes in the field of frequent flyer points. The U.K. is ill served by the BA programme and it’s exorbitant fees, even when the operating carrier has none.
End the monopoly on U.K routes and open up LHR to 5th freedom. Competition will drive an improvement in standards both on the ground and in the air.
BA will not change if that change is not forced upon them. How many times do people have to have their travel plans ruined because BA will not invest in modern IT.
I only hope that they taken to cleaners on EU261 claims. This is not extraordinary, it’s almost common place and needs to be sorted.
“Monopoly”, “Stranglehold”... have you ever checked places like FRA MUC AMS or CDG? LHR and London as a whole is a happy island of competition compared to any of the above...
London is the only market in Europe with two major intercontinental airlines based there. Three if we consider Norwegian at Gatters.
There’s at least one major competitor on every major market/city pair/route. NYC, Dubai, LA, Shanghai, Chicago, Jo’burg, Delhi, Mumbai, Tel Aviv, Toronto, Hong Kong, Singapore have three direct competitors.
There are, and have been historically, 5th freedom flights out of LHR. Air India, Kuwait are the last two examples.
There’s competition on every major UK route, if not from LHR at least from the London based airlines; and the UK regulators have forced BA to relinquish slots precisely to that purpose.
would also love to see a study on fares increasing... especially as every airline of recent is showing a reduction in yields due to over capacity.
Aug 7, 2019, 9:34 am
#192
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It is worth noting that Virgin Atlantic is in the process of lauching a major campaign to block BA's expansion with the 3rd runway. I was chatting to Shai Weiss about it a few weeks ago, and he already started dropping it in to every interview and speech he gives. At present, BA believes it is legally entitled to 50% of the new slots that will be created, which will simply mean BA closing Gatwick and moving everything across. Virgin believes there should be a different method of allocation.
Aug 7, 2019, 10:18 am
#193
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Now I understand the frustrations but this is way incorrect.
“Monopoly”, “Stranglehold”... have you ever checked places like FRA MUC AMS or CDG? LHR and London as a whole is a happy island of competition compared to any of the above...
London is the only market in Europe with two major intercontinental airlines based there. Three if we consider Norwegian at Gatters.
There’s at least one major competitor on every major market/city pair/route. NYC, Dubai, LA, Shanghai, Chicago, Jo’burg, Delhi, Mumbai, Tel Aviv, Toronto, Hong Kong, Singapore have three direct competitors.
There are, and have been historically, 5th freedom flights out of LHR. Air India, Kuwait are the last two examples.
There’s competition on every major UK route, if not from LHR at least from the London based airlines; and the UK regulators have forced BA to relinquish slots precisely to that purpose.
would also love to see a study on fares increasing... especially as every airline of recent is showing a reduction in yields due to over capacity.
Aug 7, 2019, 12:12 pm
#194
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It is worth noting that Virgin Atlantic is in the process of lauching a major campaign to block BA's expansion with the 3rd runway. I was chatting to Shai Weiss about it a few weeks ago, and he already started dropping it in to every interview and speech he gives. At present, BA believes it is legally entitled to 50% of the new slots that will be created, which will simply mean BA closing Gatwick and moving everything across. Virgin believes there should be a different method of allocation.
1. Not all the new slots get allocated. The total slot utilisation should be much less that the 98% it is apparently at present to allow more resilience during irrops.
2. Slots get allocated to new destinations that are currently not served at all or under served and this includes the UK regions. OR to an existing destination but only get allocated to a new or current small LHR operator.
3. Airlines bid to use these new slots with the aim of encouraging competition. The slots would be free and could not be sold on. It does not preclude BA from bidding but nor does it just hand slots over to them for them to do with what they will.
4. If an airline fails to operate / pulls out of a slot then the slot gets returned for allocation. The airline can't just keep it and automatically use it for another destination. So if BA starts a flight to Ulan Bator and it fails to make money then it could drop it but they hand the slot back. Given it takes time to develop markets I'd adjust the current 80/20 use or lose rule for these new slots and allocate them for at least 2-3 years. I'd also permit some flexibility so that if say an 8am landing and 11 am departure slot isn't working it could be moved to a 11am arrival and 2pm departure for example.
Aug 7, 2019, 12:22 pm
#195
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Housekeeping notice
Posts 190 to 193 above were moved into this thread after originally posted in the very busy Wed 7 Aug - BA systems down; flights disrupted / cancelled thread.
Prospero
Moderator: BA forum
Prospero
Moderator: BA forum