BBC: Norwegian and IAG/BA

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Old Feb 14, 18, 6:19 am
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This paragraph caught my eye:

Now BA engineers are busy squeezing an extra 52 seats into Gatwick-based Boeing 777 aircraft. The specific aim of "densification": to reduce BA's per-passenger costs below Norwegian's 787.
Is that remotely achievable? For a start, I gather that a 787 is much more fuel-efficient than a 777, before you add on all of BA's legacy overheads. Does BA think they can actually undercut DY on cost?
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Old Feb 14, 18, 6:30 am
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Originally Posted by TedToToe View Post
BA are responding, specifically, with densified 777s to ensure that they can match Norwegian on price. The message to Norwegian is, you're not going to make money on our patch. Elsewhere, IAG have Level. There are interesting times ahead!
BA's unstated message to passengers is this: BA plans to make its passengers at least as miserable as -- or more miserable than -- the LCCs do because we can.

If the legacy majors want to become increasnigly less distinguishable from the LCCs than they already are, then the legacy majors will get what they deserve: customers picking the lowest priced provider on a given city pair with little to no regard for airline and airline cost structure.

As SAS transitions to become a bare-bone carrier of sort, more so on some routes than others, the business that SAS used to get of mine on routes where I would have only used SAS before have ended up being largely Norwegian's gain and SAS's loss. While this kind of approach can postpone annoying SAS shareholders too much too fast, it's a sign that investing in SAS for the long-term is not a major winner. Much the same may end up being the way I deal with BA as BA increasingly apes Norwegian. Already on short-haul routes, I find Norwegian in some ways actually superior for my business than BA -- and I say that as someone who has been a long-term AA and BA elite (and OW lifetime elite status, lounge access included, to boot).
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Old Feb 14, 18, 6:37 am
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Originally Posted by HIDDY View Post
Norwegian are going to start operating a domestic network in Argentina this year. Which means they're shrewder than I thought or have totally lost the plot!!,
It's a risky strategy, but sometimes the greatest returns in a sector come from taking bold risks. A regional Mercosur network to support its Europe-South America flights might not be such a bad deal for DY in a market where localy/regionally-rooted de novos and legacy majors are not generally known for consistent, positive economic vitality nor for consistent, positive customer service.
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Old Feb 14, 18, 6:43 am
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Originally Posted by Deltus View Post
This paragraph caught my eye:



Is that remotely achievable? For a start, I gather that a 787 is much more fuel-efficient than a 777, before you add on all of BA's legacy overheads. Does BA think they can actually undercut DY on cost?
On a fully paid off 777 vs an expensive leased 787? Sure.
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Old Feb 14, 18, 6:53 am
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Originally Posted by madfish View Post
Fares on the 14-hour Norwegian Air Shuttle flight to Buenos Aires start from £259 one-way.

The seats are tightly packed and food and luggage cost extra, but the no-frills model of flying, so well established on short-haul routes, is becoming increasingly common on intercontinental flights.


Am I the only one who goes "Huh? So what?" on the Norwegian LH fares? Most of the time the lowests are as rare as a unicorn giggle, and that price isn't all that. Sure if you're going one way, then most on the normal carriers don't do a decent one way price.

However, a return without hold luggage is over £500. Are you flying halfway across the world with a couple of teeshirts and a spare pair of trousers? Maybe a student, but it seems unlikely. I think it looks like £40 for a checked bag, so we're up at near £600 return baseline economy without food or drinks included. Doesn't seem much of a bargain to me.

It's niche seems to be exaggerated value from the press, single fares and possibly short notice (but I doubt you'll pay the same three days before a flight than three months).
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Old Feb 14, 18, 7:13 am
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Originally Posted by Smid View Post
Am I the only one who goes "Huh? So what?" on the Norwegian LH fares? Most of the time the lowests are as rare as a unicorn giggle, and that price isn't all that. Sure if you're going one way, then most on the normal carriers don't do a decent one way price.

However, a return without hold luggage is over £500. Are you flying halfway across the world with a couple of teeshirts and a spare pair of trousers? Maybe a student, but it seems unlikely. I think it looks like £40 for a checked bag, so we're up at near £600 return baseline economy without food or drinks included. Doesn't seem much of a bargain to me.

It's niche seems to be exaggerated value from the press, single fares and possibly short notice (but I doubt you'll pay the same three days before a flight than three months).
It's indeed a case of buyer beware, given all the "add-ons" that may hit. But some fly between homes/offices and just having a small bag on the flight with day-trip essentials is more than plenty. And for those in the habit of flying to shop at the destination, the fare+one-way bag fee may not be all that bad a deal, especially as more and more legacy majors try to ape the LCCs with add-on fees.
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Old Feb 14, 18, 7:13 am
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Originally Posted by Smid View Post
It's niche seems to be exaggerated value from the press,.
Hence why the Norwegian marketing department spends so much effort getting them to write articles about them. Uninformed journos influencing the uninformed masses
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Old Feb 14, 18, 7:24 am
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Some informed comment

https://leehamnews.com/2018/02/14/no...lies-thin-air/
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Old Feb 14, 18, 7:28 am
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Originally Posted by Worcester View Post
Donít worry though Alex says BA is still a premium airline.
What exactly would you have BA do?
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Old Feb 14, 18, 7:35 am
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Just had a quick look at the Norwegian site. You certainly don't go under 900Ä with a bag, drinks and food.
Surprisingly on the given dates I checked on Norwegian 16.03.-25.03. LATAM from LHR as a connection is cheaper by a hundred as well as some priced around 900Ä.
​​​​​​
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Old Feb 14, 18, 7:36 am
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Originally Posted by madfish View Post

The seats are tightly packed
Norwegian have 3-3-3 on their 787's, exactly the same as BA does?!
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Old Feb 14, 18, 7:39 am
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Originally Posted by Deltus View Post
This paragraph caught my eye:
Is that remotely achievable? For a start, I gather that a 787 is much more fuel-efficient than a 777, before you add on all of BA's legacy overheads. Does BA think they can actually undercut DY on cost?
Isn't the distinction that BA's B777 fleet is paid off whereas Norwegian are having to pay for a whole new fleet of Dreamliners at the same time as selling some seats at (below?) cost over the winter?
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Old Feb 14, 18, 7:42 am
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One more thing to keep in mind is their atrocious on-time performance. As they have no interline agreements nor any spare aircraft, a delay quickly compounds and itís not unusual to get your stay extended or cut by days. They have also had a number of instances whereby their outsourced staff have left at the end of their shift without organising hotels. I would not even consider Norwegian longhaul, regardless of price.
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Old Feb 14, 18, 8:28 am
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Originally Posted by GUWonder View Post
BA's unstated message to passengers is this: BA plans to make its passengers at least as miserable as -- or more miserable than -- the LCCs do because we can.

If the legacy majors want to become increasnigly less distinguishable from the LCCs than they already are, then the legacy majors will get what they deserve: customers picking the lowest priced provider on a given city pair with little to no regard for airline and airline cost structure.

As SAS transitions to become a bare-bone carrier of sort, more so on some routes than others, the business that SAS used to get of mine on routes where I would have only used SAS before have ended up being largely Norwegian's gain and SAS's loss. While this kind of approach can postpone annoying SAS shareholders too much too fast, it's a sign that investing in SAS for the long-term is not a major winner. Much the same may end up being the way I deal with BA as BA increasingly apes Norwegian. Already on short-haul routes, I find Norwegian in some ways actually superior for my business than BA -- and I say that as someone who has been a long-term AA and BA elite (and OW lifetime elite status, lounge access included, to boot).
Er... customers already pick the lowest priced provided. There is no loyalty outside the tiny bubble of travelers that make up Flyer Talk. This is a problem that airlines cannot seem to fix.

American Airlines de-densified (is that a word?) Y in the 90s, made a big song and dance about it... and customers simply ignored it. Because UA were #10.00 cheaper in tighter seats.
The extra legroom in Y fairly quickly reverted back to extra rows of seats.

When a low cost airline parks on your doorstep, you either ignore it (as BA and bmi did initially, when easyJet arrived (while hoping that including meals and luggage matters: how did that work out?))... or you look at the new reality and provide product to match, while diluting your rivals revenue.

People book flights on cost. Take economy, look at the inexplicable use of Stansted Airport. It is awful. And people pay for the overpriced Stansted "Express", or a coach journey to the airport because they saved #20.00 on an airfare.

Ever chatted to friends who have come back on holiday? Asked them about the flight? Can they even remember the airline they flew? A remarkable number of people don't.

So BA now have Norwegian, Ryanair and easyJet parked on their doorstep. Jet2 and Wizz buzzing around. Flybe competing on some routes. Virgin and national airlines of other countries all competing.

To say that BA should either do nothing, or pretend that people buy economy flights on quality, would be insane. We may not like it, but we are getting the airlines and service we deserve, by our purchasing actions.


Gosh that we a bit stream-of-consciousness.
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Old Feb 14, 18, 8:42 am
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Originally Posted by hartwith View Post
Slightly off topic, but I'm slightly confused here as I saw a Norwegian 787 at EZE last month. Was the route not already operational?
No. As stated above, the route starts today. This is the first Norwegian route to Argentina.

However, it would be surprising if they had not "visited" the airport prior to the first flight carrying paid guests.
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