May 22, 2018, 3:28 am
Last edit by: serfty
Link to Text of the regulations in PDF format
How about a Wiki to post EU comp given/denied as well as results for any CEDR or other process. Especially concerning the 787 issue as there are going to be many claims given all the cancellations.
Mine was April 22 BA280 LAX-LHR cancellation 4 days before flight and rebooked on later flight and arrived 4.5 hrs later than origianlly scheduled. BA's response was to deny for "operational" requirements though the 787 "tentatively assigned" G-ZBJG was used instead for a LHR-YUL flight that same day. CEDR filed and awaiting their initial review. Sept 3rd UPDATE: CEDR decision in Article 7 comp awarded in the amount of 600 euro as even though extraordinary circumstances are present in an engine defect as this, BA didn't show that they took reasonable steps to avoid the cancellation as they have known since Oct 2017 of this issue.
How about a Wiki to post EU comp given/denied as well as results for any CEDR or other process. Especially concerning the 787 issue as there are going to be many claims given all the cancellations.
Mine was April 22 BA280 LAX-LHR cancellation 4 days before flight and rebooked on later flight and arrived 4.5 hrs later than origianlly scheduled. BA's response was to deny for "operational" requirements though the 787 "tentatively assigned" G-ZBJG was used instead for a LHR-YUL flight that same day. CEDR filed and awaiting their initial review. Sept 3rd UPDATE: CEDR decision in Article 7 comp awarded in the amount of 600 euro as even though extraordinary circumstances are present in an engine defect as this, BA didn't show that they took reasonable steps to avoid the cancellation as they have known since Oct 2017 of this issue.
The 2018 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004
Jul 4, 2018, 11:26 am
#841
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 35
I was on the same flight and yesterday had my claim rejected with this statement: Your claim for EU has been refused because BA0877 on 15 June was delayed because of operational circumstances outside of our control, which prevented the aircraft operating as scheduled. Under EU legislation, I’m afraid we’re not liable for a compensation payment in this situation.
I am currently awaiting their reply as to why they think that way. In the meantime, I've had these two tweets from their Twitter team, after I raised this matter with them:
We're sorry you're disappointed by this. I'm afraid the technical delay only contributed 171 minutes of the overall flight delay on BA0877. This does mean it's not payable under EU regulations.
To be eligible for EU compensation, the technical delay minutes would need to be 180 minutes or more. The total length of the delay wouldn't make this eligible and I'm sorry for the disappointment this has caused.
I can only assume at this point that they are saying that they fixed the fault within 3 hours (though we only have their word on that for now) and that possibly the fact that we wouldn't be allowed to land in the early hours at Heathrow and that their crew needed to rest were out of their control. So far, others feel that both these are "known knowns" and not exceptional circumstances. My own research into the EU regulation and the official EU guide to its interpretation shows no mention of any element of proportionality for a technical failure as part of the overall delay. The interpretation guide is clear that the delay is the difference between the planned and actual arrival times, with no mention of the time taking to fix the issue being a consideration.
As soon as I know more, I'll update this post and the other I started on this topic.
I am currently awaiting their reply as to why they think that way. In the meantime, I've had these two tweets from their Twitter team, after I raised this matter with them:
We're sorry you're disappointed by this. I'm afraid the technical delay only contributed 171 minutes of the overall flight delay on BA0877. This does mean it's not payable under EU regulations.
To be eligible for EU compensation, the technical delay minutes would need to be 180 minutes or more. The total length of the delay wouldn't make this eligible and I'm sorry for the disappointment this has caused.
I can only assume at this point that they are saying that they fixed the fault within 3 hours (though we only have their word on that for now) and that possibly the fact that we wouldn't be allowed to land in the early hours at Heathrow and that their crew needed to rest were out of their control. So far, others feel that both these are "known knowns" and not exceptional circumstances. My own research into the EU regulation and the official EU guide to its interpretation shows no mention of any element of proportionality for a technical failure as part of the overall delay. The interpretation guide is clear that the delay is the difference between the planned and actual arrival times, with no mention of the time taking to fix the issue being a consideration.
As soon as I know more, I'll update this post and the other I started on this topic.
I have also just had an email saying that our claim for compensation has been denied:
"Thanks for contacting us regarding your flight from Tallinn in Club Europe on 15 June. Please accept my apologies for the delay in responding to you.
I know how frustrating it must have been when your flight was delayed, especially as it ended up being delayed overnight. I realise you didn't arrive in London until 15:15 the following day. We take all reasonable measures to avoid delaying a flight and we look at all operational options before a decision is made. I'm sorry for the problems this caused you.
I've looked into the details of your flight BA0877, and I can see the delay was initially caused by an engine fault. As you're aware, once the aircraft was fixed, it would have been too late to land at London Heathrow. We contacted Heathrow Airport Limited to request an extension so we could land, but unfortunately this was declined.
Under EU legislation we're not liable for a payment in this situation, as the overnight delay was outside of our control. I'm sorry to disappoint you.
We're very grateful you've taken the time to let us know what happened when you travelled with us. It’s only through your feedback we’re able to focus on areas where we need to improve, so we can offer you the best possible service.
Thanks again for getting in touch. We appreciate your support as a Blue member of our Executive Club. Please don't hesitate to contact me again if I can help you with anything else."
I know how frustrating it must have been when your flight was delayed, especially as it ended up being delayed overnight. I realise you didn't arrive in London until 15:15 the following day. We take all reasonable measures to avoid delaying a flight and we look at all operational options before a decision is made. I'm sorry for the problems this caused you.
I've looked into the details of your flight BA0877, and I can see the delay was initially caused by an engine fault. As you're aware, once the aircraft was fixed, it would have been too late to land at London Heathrow. We contacted Heathrow Airport Limited to request an extension so we could land, but unfortunately this was declined.
Under EU legislation we're not liable for a payment in this situation, as the overnight delay was outside of our control. I'm sorry to disappoint you.
We're very grateful you've taken the time to let us know what happened when you travelled with us. It’s only through your feedback we’re able to focus on areas where we need to improve, so we can offer you the best possible service.
Thanks again for getting in touch. We appreciate your support as a Blue member of our Executive Club. Please don't hesitate to contact me again if I can help you with anything else."
Jul 4, 2018, 11:37 am
#842
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,791
At this point I wouldn't spend more time on Customer Relations, they are going to stick to that line. I have to say that if BA really did get a decline from Heathrow that night then that may count as extraordinary circumstances, on the other hand the reason why the question arose was due to a technical defect, and that's not extraordinary circumstances. In this situation I would perhaps suggest the CEDR route (see top of the thread) since that way you can get to see exactly what transpired between BA and HAL on this issue. MCOL would do the same, and may be quicker, but I think I am hesitating to recommend you spending money advancing your case by that route, it's not totally clear cut. The only line of approach is whether BA could have got you back to London sooner than it did, and the efforts it did to do this. (Extraordinary Circumstances has been ruled not to get a blank cheque to airlines, they are still responsible for the good management of the Extraordinary Circumstance).
Jul 4, 2018, 11:45 am
#843
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,791
I was booked on flight AA6144 operated by BA as BA179 on June 9th, which is scheduled to arrive at 2100. I was informed by the BA agent on the phone when I was asking to change my seat on this flight, that it is cancelled due to "operational reasons", two days before scheduled departure. I was given options to rebook on, though they are all outside of 4 hours around scheduled arrival time. I was eventually rebooked on BA173 which arrived 1405.
Now that service is LHR to JFK, and I am not sure it was a 787 service - did you make a record of this? It's normally a 747 service. There is a genuine problem with 787s, and there is an argument on both sides as to whether it is extraordinary circumstances. However if you were on another aircraft altogether, which perhaps BA decided to reallocate to a 787 service, then that definitely is not extraordinary circumstances. It's in any case up to the airlines to make their case, rather than it being your job to disprove it. So you may fairly swiftly ask for a deadlock letter/email and then look at CEDR for taking the matter further.
Jul 4, 2018, 11:49 am
#844
Join Date: Feb 2016
Posts: 35
At this point I wouldn't spend more time on Customer Relations, they are going to stick to that line. I have to say that if BA really did get a decline from Heathrow that night then that may count as extraordinary circumstances, on the other hand the reason why the question arose was due to a technical defect, and that's not extraordinary circumstances. In this situation I would perhaps suggest the CEDR route (see top of the thread) since that way you can get to see exactly what transpired between BA and HAL on this issue. MCOL would do the same, and may be quicker, but I think I am hesitating to recommend you spending money advancing your case by that route, it's not totally clear cut. The only line of approach is whether BA could have got you back to London sooner than it did, and the efforts it did to do this. (Extraordinary Circumstances has been ruled not to get a blank cheque to airlines, they are still responsible for the good management of the Extraordinary Circumstance).
Jul 4, 2018, 11:51 am
#845
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,791
Thanks for replying, I'll give CEDR a try. Looking on their website it seems that I might need to wait until 8 weeks after the flight to use their services, seeing as I haven't had a referral to them from BA - is my understanding correct? If so, I'll need to wait until August.
Jul 4, 2018, 11:59 am
#846
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 5
Thanks for joining us here on Flyertalk, and welcome to the BA forum Holymoly. I hope we will also see you elsewhere in this forum, which has a lot of useful and interesting contributions to improving your travel experiences.
Now that service is LHR to JFK, and I am not sure it was a 787 service - did you make a record of this? It's normally a 747 service. There is a genuine problem with 787s, and there is an argument on both sides as to whether it is extraordinary circumstances. However if you were on another aircraft altogether, which perhaps BA decided to reallocate to a 787 service, then that definitely is not extraordinary circumstances. It's in any case up to the airlines to make their case, rather than it being your job to disprove it. So you may fairly swiftly ask for a deadlock letter/email and then look at CEDR for taking the matter further.
Now that service is LHR to JFK, and I am not sure it was a 787 service - did you make a record of this? It's normally a 747 service. There is a genuine problem with 787s, and there is an argument on both sides as to whether it is extraordinary circumstances. However if you were on another aircraft altogether, which perhaps BA decided to reallocate to a 787 service, then that definitely is not extraordinary circumstances. It's in any case up to the airlines to make their case, rather than it being your job to disprove it. So you may fairly swiftly ask for a deadlock letter/email and then look at CEDR for taking the matter further.
Last edited by Holymoly; Jul 4, 2018 at 12:13 pm
Jul 4, 2018, 12:19 pm
#848
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,791
Well so long as it's not a 787 then the Rolls Royce issue doesn't apply. And even if it was a 787 it is still arguable. Just move on to the CEDR process as suggested above.
Jul 5, 2018, 7:29 am
#850
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 95
A couple of weeks ago our family holiday started (ex EU) from DUB to EWR via LHR.The DUB dep was sch for 14-10 (land lhr 15-40) connecting to the EWR flt sch to leave 16-55. This effectively allowed 1hour 15mins connection time at LHR. The aircraft was 20mins late arriving into DUB and following turnaround was approx 20mins late leaving the gate at DUB.After what seemed an interminably long taxi it stopped presumably awaiting further ATC instruction. I was becoming anxious because it was now 14-45 and we were still on the tarmac at DUB with just 1 hour 10mins to go before our flt to EWR was due to leave LHR! The other 4 family members were already fed up at having to fly to DUB in the morning then having to fly back to LHR again! To then miss the EWR flight ....... well you can imagine! Anyway back to the DUB tarmac a passenger in the row behind me was being sick into the bag and the elderly couple in the row beside her panicked and alerted one of the CC who then proceeded to ask the passenger if she felt well enough to travel.Now the passenger could not speak English so after faffing around for a further 10 mins the Cap announces we are going back to stand for a paramedic to board. The paramedic quickly decided she was ok to continue but then a further 15 min delay whilst fuel was topped up. We eventually left and landed at LHR just after 17-00 but of course missed our EWR flt. As same pnr we were put into hotel overninght and re routed to JFK next morning because the EWR flights that day were full.My sister in New Jersey managed to re arrange my car hire overnight from EWR to JFK pick up but at an additional cost of £235.
My query to the experts on this forum is do you think this journey merits a claim under EC261 because we were still on the tarmac at DUB with 1hour 10mins to go before our EWR flt was due to leave LHR. I suspect BA would blame the delay on the "sick " woman being an "extraordinary circumstance" but I feel we would have missed the connection anyway before the sickness episode. Also do you think I am justified claiming reimbursement for the £235 extra car hire charge because BA could only get us to JFK. Any views would be much appreciated.
My query to the experts on this forum is do you think this journey merits a claim under EC261 because we were still on the tarmac at DUB with 1hour 10mins to go before our EWR flt was due to leave LHR. I suspect BA would blame the delay on the "sick " woman being an "extraordinary circumstance" but I feel we would have missed the connection anyway before the sickness episode. Also do you think I am justified claiming reimbursement for the £235 extra car hire charge because BA could only get us to JFK. Any views would be much appreciated.
Jul 5, 2018, 7:36 am
#851
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Somewhere around Europe...
Programs: BA Gold; MB Ti; HH Diamond; IHG Plat; RR Gold
Posts: 530
A couple of weeks ago our family holiday started (ex EU) from DUB to EWR via LHR.The DUB dep was sch for 14-10 (land lhr 15-40) connecting to the EWR flt sch to leave 16-55. This effectively allowed 1hour 15mins connection time at LHR. The aircraft was 20mins late arriving into DUB and following turnaround was approx 20mins late leaving the gate at DUB.After what seemed an interminably long taxi it stopped presumably awaiting further ATC instruction. I was becoming anxious because it was now 14-45 and we were still on the tarmac at DUB with just 1 hour 10mins to go before our flt to EWR was due to leave LHR! The other 4 family members were already fed up at having to fly to DUB in the morning then having to fly back to LHR again! To then miss the EWR flight ....... well you can imagine! Anyway back to the DUB tarmac a passenger in the row behind me was being sick into the bag and the elderly couple in the row beside her panicked and alerted one of the CC who then proceeded to ask the passenger if she felt well enough to travel.Now the passenger could not speak English so after faffing around for a further 10 mins the Cap announces we are going back to stand for a paramedic to board. The paramedic quickly decided she was ok to continue but then a further 15 min delay whilst fuel was topped up. We eventually left and landed at LHR just after 17-00 but of course missed our EWR flt. As same pnr we were put into hotel overninght and re routed to JFK next morning because the EWR flights that day were full.My sister in New Jersey managed to re arrange my car hire overnight from EWR to JFK pick up but at an additional cost of £235.
My query to the experts on this forum is do you think this journey merits a claim under EC261 because we were still on the tarmac at DUB with 1hour 10mins to go before our EWR flt was due to leave LHR. I suspect BA would blame the delay on the "sick " woman being an "extraordinary circumstance" but I feel we would have missed the connection anyway before the sickness episode. Also do you think I am justified claiming reimbursement for the £235 extra car hire charge because BA could only get us to JFK. Any views would be much appreciated.
My query to the experts on this forum is do you think this journey merits a claim under EC261 because we were still on the tarmac at DUB with 1hour 10mins to go before our EWR flt was due to leave LHR. I suspect BA would blame the delay on the "sick " woman being an "extraordinary circumstance" but I feel we would have missed the connection anyway before the sickness episode. Also do you think I am justified claiming reimbursement for the £235 extra car hire charge because BA could only get us to JFK. Any views would be much appreciated.
As regards your consequential car hire costs you could try appealing to Customer Services (they paid for my GVA-LYS hire last year after a WX cancellation), however this is discretionary. BA are not required to cover these costs, they would normally need to be met by your travel insurer.
Jul 5, 2018, 7:42 am
#852
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
My query to the experts on this forum is do you think this journey merits a claim under EC261 because we were still on the tarmac at DUB with 1hour 10mins to go before our EWR flt was due to leave LHR. I suspect BA would blame the delay on the "sick " woman being an "extraordinary circumstance" but I feel we would have missed the connection anyway before the sickness episode. Also do you think I am justified claiming reimbursement for the £235 extra car hire charge because BA could only get us to JFK. Any views would be much appreciated.
Re the car costs - well that is what insurance is for and BA will probably advise you to claim accordingly.
Frustrating but in paying for the hotel BA has met its EC261 commitments I suspect.
Jul 5, 2018, 7:47 am
#853
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: London, UK
Programs: BA GGL
Posts: 1,578
Sorry to hear about your delay, however unfortunately I don't see any compensation being due here. I suspect the delay at the gate (and indeed the slow taxi) will have been a result of an ATC slot restriction, for which BA aren't liable.
As regards your consequential car hire costs you could try appealing to Customer Services (they paid for my GVA-LYS hire last year after a WX cancellation), however this is discretionary. BA are not required to cover these costs, they would normally need to be met by your travel insurer.
As regards your consequential car hire costs you could try appealing to Customer Services (they paid for my GVA-LYS hire last year after a WX cancellation), however this is discretionary. BA are not required to cover these costs, they would normally need to be met by your travel insurer.
Jul 5, 2018, 8:16 am
#854
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 95
Thank you for your replies,they pretty much confirm what I was expecting. With the excess on my travel insurance I dont think I will bother claiming but just put it all down to experience!
Thank you all again.
Thank you all again.
Jul 5, 2018, 10:21 am
#855
Moderator, Emirates
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Where My Heart Is
Programs: BAEC Silver, FB Platinum, KQ Asante Gold, Shebamiles Blue, Emirates Blue
Posts: 3,385