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The 2018 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

The 2018 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

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Old Dec 17, 18, 5:14 am   -   Wikipost
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Link to Text of the regulations in PDF format

How about a Wiki to post EU comp given/denied as well as results for any CEDR or other process. Especially concerning the 787 issue as there are going to be many claims given all the cancellations.

Mine was April 22 BA280 LAX-LHR cancellation 4 days before flight and rebooked on later flight and arrived 4.5 hrs later than origianlly scheduled. BA's response was to deny for "operational" requirements though the 787 "tentatively assigned" G-ZBJG was used instead for a LHR-YUL flight that same day. CEDR filed and awaiting their initial review. Sept 3rd UPDATE: CEDR decision in Article 7 comp awarded in the amount of 600 euro as even though extraordinary circumstances are present in an engine defect as this, BA didn't show that they took reasonable steps to avoid the cancellation as they have known since Oct 2017 of this issue.
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Old Jan 25, 18, 5:03 am
  #91  
 
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How many Avios is €250 worth?
How many avios is ‘not re-routing at the earliest opportunity ‘ worth ?
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Old Jan 26, 18, 2:27 pm
  #92  
 
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Hi

I asked BA for proof of my flight on Jan 3 being cancelled, and I've got back an emailed letter saying

"Reason for the cancellation: Operational"

This seems a) brief, and b) unexpected as I'd expect them to have put air traffic restrictions which is the reason I was given over the phone.

Does this letter mean I stand a chance of asking for compensation? From what I've understood just "operational" isn't enough detail or a reason to withold eu261 compensation.

Thanks
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Old Jan 26, 18, 2:50 pm
  #93  
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Well, it's not clear if you asked for EC261, but if this was a cancellation in the wake of Eleanor then I have my doubts that this would be successful. If you haven't applied for it then I guess there's no harm trying, but in the absence of other information I doubt this will go far. Operational - as in we cancelled because we were short of aircraft that day due to maintenance over runs - would facilitate an Article 7 claim.
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Old Jan 26, 18, 3:00 pm
  #94  
 
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Yes, the cancellation was because of the storm or so I was told, but I've now learned to not believe what BA tell me. At LHR on the day I was told I would be eligible for compensation (but was also told I'd get my train fare home back...), but on the phone I was told I wasn't eligible for ec261. Is it worth me pursuing this, or is it just going to be a waste of everyone's time? To be "operational" could mean anything and nothing.

I'm currently out of pocket, and going through the MCOL process, so don't really want to bother with this unless it's got a good chance of being worth my time.

Thanks
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Old Jan 26, 18, 3:12 pm
  #95  
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The details of your trip are to be found here:
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/29326028-post48.html

The question is whether you can use MCOL to reclaim the train fare given that BA offered a flight the next day. I don't think you will get anywhere on Article 7 compensation but as I say, no harm in trying. You can only go down the MCOL route if (a) you have given BA a specific request for a remedy (b) given them enough time to refuse and (c) are prepared to go through the process, bearing in mind there is paper trail to get through. The only person would can decide whether using the train rather than staying overnight is reasonable, under the Regulation, is a judge. You would have some background material to back you up, such as the blue CAA leaflet that BA hands out in these circumstances, which kind-of implies that you can make your own arrangements if BA doesn't offer a replacement flight on the same day. This isn't a rock solid case but if argued properly you may be in with a chance.

Now by the sounds of it you have had your refund amount, to know that you are out of pocket, and that is presumably less than the train fare. How much is the train fare claim for at this point? If it is a low figure you may want to give BA Customer Relations another call.
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Old Jan 26, 18, 3:36 pm
  #96  
 
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I gave BA customer services ample opportunities, they have said that I can't take it any further and that it was the end of the line with them with nothing else they could do and they refused to do any more (I have all of this in a recorded phone conversation). The train ticket was a bit under £140, so not a huge amount, but it's enough for me to want back on principle.

On the day I travelled I asked for what I was told in writing from the BA staff at LHR, but was given nothing and was told that everything I needed was all online at ba.com and to get home and not to worry about it. The agent even suggested how best to get to Kings Cross (tube instead of Heathrow Express as it was easier to do with my bags).

I have no idea about my refund amount, I have asked how much this would be, and been told the customer services don't know and that they can't find out but that it wouldn't cover the cost of the train. How they can't tell me what my refund would be is proof of how un-integrated the BA systems must be! They did offer me a BA voucher for the difference but I explained that I didn't have any travel plans involving BA in the foreseeable future so that offer would be no use. So to answer your points:
(a) my train fare amount, nothing more
(b) they verbally refused to do any more to help me, I did give them ample chances to settle and they point blank refused.
(c) I am, on principle! The MCOL was completed after the BA customer relations person told me they wouldn't do any more for me other than say sorry for being told the wrong information (I have this apology in writing from BA, which seems like an admission of guilt to me)

It's not too late for BA to change their mind, it's one click on the MCOL to say I've got my money... but I don't fancy calling Customer Relations again, I don't think I could stand to hear the on hold music/announcements for another hour!

Thanks
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Old Jan 26, 18, 4:04 pm
  #97  
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I guess you have to do what you have to do, I can see you have a sense of injustice here. Normally e-vouchers can be used on other travellers, not just yourself, so if it was for the full amount it may have been a way out here.

Normally I would advocate doing MCOL in a careful structured way. It is intended to be used by the layman or woman, but the legal overlay is never far away. So if you were looking for my advice I would say hold on until you know what the refund is for otherwise you could be claiming for £140 when BA may be willing to pay a similar sum in a few weeks anyway. This might not sit well with a judge, who may struggle to see why this case needs a rapid solution for a relatively small sum.

The alternative is to work out what the LBA refund would be - using any rational method that you would be able to explain coherently in court - and structure a claim on that basis. You would then give BA 16 days to pay the LBA refund of £x and the train difference of £140 minus x, which of course adds up to £140. However before you start MCOL you need to have given BA a proper opportunity to resolve the claim on the same basis that would end up in MCOL, otherwise BA can simply apply to terminate the action and leave you with the legal costs.

You can just crash through all of this, it's possible BA will simply decide it's not worth defending this, and there is an arbitration stage in the middle where BA are in the habit of capitulating when challenged. But personally I think it's best to do it properly and cautiously.
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Old Jan 28, 18, 8:22 am
  #98  
 
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13hr delay owing to "insufficent rest" -- good case?

Hello,

I hope I'm posting this in the right place. I'm wondering whether I have a good enough compensation case under EC261 to pursue via CEDR or MCOL.

My BA flight from Atlanta to LHR earlier this month was delayed by 13 hours -- we were told at the time it was because the crew had not had sufficient rest. BA did all the right things in terms of offering hotel accommodation etc and rebooking connections (at least for me . . .). I wrote via the web complaints form claiming compensation under EC261, and was refused. The reply said that the lack of rest was caused by "noise outside the hotel", and presumably BA reckon that is an extraordinary circumstance outside their control. My question, really, is whether CEDR are likely to agree with them, or to side with me. Any opinions?

(happy to give more detail if needed)
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Old Jan 28, 18, 8:28 am
  #99  
 
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Originally Posted by stevekinguk View Post
I gave BA customer services ample opportunities, they have said that I can't take it any further and that it was the end of the line with them with nothing else they could do and they refused to do any more (I have all of this in a recorded phone conversation). The train ticket was a bit under £140, so not a huge amount, but it's enough for me to want back on principle.
Kick off the MCOL process, when asked later on say you are happy for a phone meeting for arbitration - BA will likely give you the cash at this point. You have a very strong - but not 100% - case.
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Old Jan 28, 18, 8:48 am
  #100  
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Welcome to Flyertalk kropotkin, and welcome to the BA forum. Yes you have come to the right place and I would certainly encourage you to look at the rest of this forum for all the interesting information it has. Welcome on board.

Now for the specifics of your complaint: I have been participating in this thread series for a few years now, and just went you think there is nothing new under the sun, up pops a post like yours. I have never heard of this reason being used before and I am unsure that I can offer good advice on this one. Clearly if the crew didn't have a good night's sleep then you don't want them going over the Atlantic on sleep deprivation. I suspect this was flight crew related, rather than cabin crew. There may be a line of weakness here, since if it was cabin crew, BA have been known to put staff in hotels by freeways and other less glamorous spots - that would be BA's choice to do that as part of a union agreement several years ago. However flight crew negotiated their own terms and usually their hotels are pretty sensible. Hotel specifics are not discussed publicly for good security reasons.

If this had been in LHR I would have said you would have had a good case. Because it was done at a one-a-day out-station service then the cause of the problem was outside BA's control, and at that point they would have an arguable case. I think you would struggle to counter the legal phrasing here, which is
if it can prove that the cancellation is caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken.
As a non lawyer, BA would seem to have (a) the extraordinary (b) unavoidable (c) no reasonable counter measures available. So I'm not sure what legal lines of approach you can take here to construct an argument to counter BA's position.

Having said that, it's only a judge that can make a ruling here. Don't bother with CEDR - this is too far from being cut and dried. You could try MCOL, not least because BA would have to put up the evidence in their submission to court, however it may well be a waste of the court fee if it turns out they have a rock solid case.
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Old Jan 28, 18, 10:13 am
  #101  
 
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Thanks for the reply, corporate-wage-slave. Some very detailed and useful info there. What you're saying agrees with my own feelings on the matter—I think BA are probably in a good position on this one, it does sound pretty far out of their control, and I don't think I'd have much of a chance. (And yes, I definitely do not want my transatlantic flight piloted by people who've not slept!) However, some of the more, um, optimistic members of my family feel it's worth pursuing, so I wanted to seek some outside opinions!
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Old Jan 28, 18, 10:21 am
  #102  
 
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Nobody wants to fly with a sleep deprived flight crew, but that doesn't mean that passengers shouldn't be compensated for delays caused by this. Surely it is BA's responsibility to place their crews at hotels where they are not going to be disturbed by noise from outside the hotel? Shouldn't lack of noise be one of the criteria for crew hotel selection?
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Old Jan 28, 18, 10:39 am
  #103  
 
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HilFly, I agree that this is BA's responsibility, but it's precisely the fact that this doesn't happen often that makes me think the noise was truly exceptional—that is, that a normally quiet hotel was afflicted that particular night—and that is what makes me think that I don't have much of a case here. But I will think about it.
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Old Jan 28, 18, 10:42 am
  #104  
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Originally Posted by HilFly View Post
Nobody wants to fly with a sleep deprived flight crew, but that doesn't mean that passengers shouldn't be compensated for delays caused by this. Surely it is BA's responsibility to place their crews at hotels where they are not going to be disturbed by noise from outside the hotel? Wouldn't lack of noise be one of the criteria for crew hotel selection?
And that would probably be the best line of approach, which I did mention in the previous reply. However from what little I know about hotel selection for crews, the hotel does have to conform to certain criteria, such as blackout curtains, and the risk of noise is on the checklist. But what happens when a bunch of teenagers in the next room start partying at (say) 9pm? Or more likely in this case night-time roadworks that happens once in a blue moon. You can tell if you're in a crew hotel since many of them will have signs up in particular areas asking for guests to be quiet in the common areas at all times.
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Old Jan 28, 18, 5:49 pm
  #105  
 
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Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave View Post
And that would probably be the best line of approach, which I did mention in the previous reply. However from what little I know about hotel selection for crews, the hotel does have to conform to certain criteria, such as blackout curtains, and the risk of noise is on the checklist. But what happens when a bunch of teenagers in the next room start partying at (say) 9pm? Or more likely in this case night-time roadworks that happens once in a blue moon. You can tell if you're in a crew hotel since many of them will have signs up in particular areas asking for guests to be quiet in the common areas at all times.
I have stayed in hotels where I have been able to hear every word of every conversation in the corridor, the wedding in the ballroom, car alarms, car doors slamming, and trucks backing up all night long. I have also stayed in hotels that were well soundproofed where I heard nothing from inside or outside of the hotel. Location within the hotel can also make a big difference. I would have thought these factors are all within BA's control.
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