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The 2018 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

The 2018 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

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Old Dec 17, 18, 5:14 am   -   Wikipost
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How about a Wiki to post EU comp given/denied as well as results for any CEDR or other process. Especially concerning the 787 issue as there are going to be many claims given all the cancellations.

Mine was April 22 BA280 LAX-LHR cancellation 4 days before flight and rebooked on later flight and arrived 4.5 hrs later than origianlly scheduled. BA's response was to deny for "operational" requirements though the 787 "tentatively assigned" G-ZBJG was used instead for a LHR-YUL flight that same day. CEDR filed and awaiting their initial review. Sept 3rd UPDATE: CEDR decision in Article 7 comp awarded in the amount of 600 euro as even though extraordinary circumstances are present in an engine defect as this, BA didn't show that they took reasonable steps to avoid the cancellation as they have known since Oct 2017 of this issue.
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Old May 8, 18, 5:04 am
  #556  
 
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I'm not clear on whether a 50% reduction applies in this case - if @corporate-wage-slave or one of the other gurus could advise it would be much appreciated.

I was due to fly from Billund to London City with Sun-Air, leaving at 17.50 and arriving at 18.30. They cancelled 3 days before the flight was due to leave (so less than 7 days and definitely less than 14 days!). I could have got the flight to LCY the following morning, but decided to get the BA flight to LHR that left on the same day, but significantly earlier (leaving at 11:15 and arriving at 12:10) - the children were not impressed losing a day in Legoland ! Sun-Air are saying that as I arrived earlier than planned the compensation is reduced by 50%, but in the clause "Compensation is reduced by 50% if any re-routing offered to your final destination results in a scheduled arrival time which does not exceed the scheduled arrival time of the original flight by two hours for flights of 1500 km or less" Sun-Air are insisting that as I got an earlier flight the actual arrival time doesn't exceed the scheduled arrival time by two hours. My take would be that it is +/- two hours, but does it mean +2 hours?

Answers on a postcard please
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Old May 9, 18, 10:11 am
  #557  
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Originally Posted by Work-Shy View Post
My friend replied via the webform mentioning the suggested text about Siewert v Condor and requested a deadlock release. Alarmingly (and annoyingly), BA have replied with...

A formal letter before action has now been sent to the UK address but would it be uncharitbale to assume the Indian customer contact centre staff have carte blanche to deny claims and obfuscate as much as possible in the hope customers give up? I can only hope the letter before action prompts somebody more competent to assess the case and progress the issue.
I was on the same flight with two others. Iím on rejection #2. Iíve just sent the relevant case in my most recent reply. Iíd love to know what if any further developments occur in your friendís case.
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Old May 9, 18, 10:50 am
  #558  
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Originally Posted by LondonAndy View Post
Sun-Air are saying that as I arrived earlier than planned the compensation is reduced by 50%, but in the clause "Compensation is reduced by 50% if any re-routing offered to your final destination results in a scheduled arrival time which does not exceed the scheduled arrival time of the original flight by two hours for flights of 1500 km or less" Sun-Air are insisting that as I got an earlier flight the actual arrival time doesn't exceed the scheduled arrival time by two hours. My take would be that it is +/- two hours, but does it mean +2 hours?
Yes SUN have got the correct interpretation, essentially you need to be between 2 to 4 hours late on the original schedule to get the full amount, depending on distance and whether there actually was a cancelled flight involved. There is no minus mentioned in the legislation. The relevant clause is below. It sounds like you are dealing with SUN directly (well done for that, it isn't BA in this case) - there is a lovely lady there who handles all of this for SUN, so if you ask her for a space alternative free flight to BLL instead of compensation, she may be able to help with that - assuming this is of value.
2. When passengers are offered re-routing to their final destination on an alternative flight pursuant to Article 8, the arrival time of which does not exceed the scheduled arrival time of the flight originally booked
(a) by two hours, in respect of all flights of 1 500 kilometres
or less; or
[...]
the operating air carrier may reduce the compensation provided for in paragraph 1 by 50 %.
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Old May 9, 18, 2:00 pm
  #559  
 
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Unhappy BA seem to be giving me the runaround

We had our flight from ORD-LHR cancelled in March. It was cancelled because the outbound flight LHR-ORD was cancelled due to bad weather. However, 2 out of the 3 BA flights didg operate to ORD and the last flight was “merged” with the middle flight (BA’s description). Pretty much all long haul flights operated on the day in question but BA are denying EU261 compensation due to weather. However, on the day in question BA didn’t notify me of cancellation despite being registered for email and SMS notifications and also having the IOS App. BA have admitted this. The only reason I found out the flight was cancelled is that BA in the US phoned my son who was on a separate booking on the same flight. BA automatically booked us in the same flight 24 hours later (and moved us from First I to CW). Our upgrade to first time as a confirmed upgrade for reasons I won’t go into here. We were not best pleased but, once I had got used t9 the idea I began to look at options. I realised that an earlier BA flight still had seats in economy and seats in economy and Club were available an hour after our original departure on a BA codeshare with AA. I tried to phone BA to ask why this had not been offered but nobody wanted to answer the phone either in the US or UK. If BA had booked us on either of the available flights ethere would not have been a delay (or we would have got in early). There were also Air Lingus flights to LHR and LGW. Nothing other than the booking 24 hours later was offered. Further investigation shows that BA told outgoing pax that the flight was merged due to shortage of de-icing equipment. After meaningless answers from the call centre I opened a Resolver case and sent BA screen shots showing that flights were available which would have prevented a delay and also pointed out that delays with ground equipment don’t count but now they have claimed twice that they didn’t receive my letters or screenshots and Resolver day they have been resent. The latest reply from BA is a standard receipt of communication and a different case number. Very frustrating! Can anyone please offer advice on how best to proceed. Incidentally,I was on a single Avios booking in CW (with upgrade to 1st) and my son was on the outbound leg of a return booked in the US in economy with wife and child. He also got the “exceptional “ weather brush off.

Last edited by Definitas; May 9, 18 at 2:06 pm Reason: typing errors
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Old May 9, 18, 2:11 pm
  #560  
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Originally Posted by Definitas View Post
We had our flight from ORD-LHR cancelled in March..
As a general point, if you want to switch airlines or anything in that area then there may be a case for doing this at the airport. In this case BA could have done it over the telephone (that doesn't apply to all locations, but it does here) but presumably due to the Beast it was extremely difficult to get through to a Contact Centre.

I am not optimistic in your case (without knowing whether this was a Beast related delay) since BA will generally decline all such attempts for compensation if the weather was the root cause. So far as I can tell, MCOL and CEDR have tended to back airlines in this area too. There may be other factors that come into play, and certainly the availability of other options on other services may well make yours a stronger argument. However, with the caveats already given, in this sort of circumstance BA won't normally budge off their position. So you then have a choice - do you take it further with either MCOL or CEDR? And personally in cases like this CEDR is probably a waste of time. If you have done your homework and can find a specific argument under EC261 as to why BA didn't fulfill the Regulation's requirements, then you need to consider going forward with MCOL. The relevant steps are at the top of the thread.

Incidentally Revolver tends to slow the process down, the relevant forms (see upthread) are all online and these get faster replies.
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Old May 9, 18, 2:40 pm
  #561  
 
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Corporate-Wage-Slave, Thanks for the reply and for the advice. I’m not sure if it was the Beast. However all other flights LHR-ORD (AA, UA, and 2 of 3 BA ) operated normally. BA only cancelled 2 long haul that day, one to JFK and one to ORD which makes me think that they can’t claim it was “exceptional “ weather. However, the thrust of my case is that seats were available on BA metal the day which our flight was cancelled but BA didn’t make any attempt to contact us to tell us our flight was cancelled or to book us on the the alternate same day flight. If they had done there would not have been a delay (we would have got in early!). Our 24 hour delay was entirely down to BA. Incidentally, when I contacted BA they phoned me and told me that, although the flight was not showing aas cancelled on the BA App, it is very flakey and not to rely on it for notifications (although that was not a factor here). Previous 261 cases have disallowed ground equipment excuses and LHR operated almost a full long haul service on the day in question. I’m tempted to save any further grief with BA and forfeit 25% to A well Known claims management service
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Old May 9, 18, 2:53 pm
  #562  
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Originally Posted by Definitas View Post
I’m tempted to save any further grief with BA and forfeit 25% to A well Known claims management service
I don't see any point in doing that, since you still have to do the same work if you did all yourself (the claims management service need the same information), you may as well donate 20% of any compensation to this company as a gift! But yes, you seem to have some useful arguments there, there is a key requirement for BA to do all reasonable measures, furthermore under MCOL it's not for you to prove BA wrong on the weather conditions, it's up to BA to prove the case for it being "meteorological conditions incompatible with the operation of the flight concerned". I wouldn't look at the ground handling cases (other than to show the general way the Regulation works) but consider this recital 14 in the Preamble: "obligations on operating air carriers should be limited or excluded in cases where an event has been caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken" - from what I am seeing it wasn't extraordinary (if other flights operated) and there were reasonable measures they could have taken (seats apparently available in other aircraft). As I say, the onus is on BA to prove its case.

I should have mentioned earlier - I couldn't quite work out the First versus CW issue you raised. But if you were confirmed in First and all BA could do is offer CW then you would get reimbursement (not just the delay compensation) for the downgrade - that shouldn't be controversial here. More on this upthread and also last year's thread, but that is 75% of the fare pro rata for the distance concerned and BA can still levy any taxes or airport style fees.
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Old May 9, 18, 3:51 pm
  #563  
 
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Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave View Post
I don't see any point in doing that, since you still have to do the same work if you did all yourself (the claims management service need the same information), you may as well donate 20% of any compensation to this company as a gift! But yes, you seem to have some useful arguments there, there is a key requirement for BA to do all reasonable measures, furthermore under MCOL it's not for you to prove BA wrong on the weather conditions, it's up to BA to prove the case for it being "meteorological conditions incompatible with the operation of the flight concerned". I wouldn't look at the ground handling cases (other than to show the general way the Regulation works) but consider this recital 14 in the Preamble: "obligations on operating air carriers should be limited or excluded in cases where an event has been caused by extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken" - from what I am seeing it wasn't extraordinary (if other flights operated) and there were reasonable measures they could have taken (seats apparently available in other aircraft). As I say, the onus is on BA to prove its case.

I should have mentioned earlier - I couldn't quite work out the First versus CW issue you raised. But if you were confirmed in First and all BA could do is offer CW then you would get reimbursement (not just the delay compensation) for the downgrade - that shouldn't be controversial here. More on this upthread and also last year's thread, but that is 75% of the fare pro rata for the distance concerned and BA can still levy any taxes or airport style fees.
The upgrade was complimentary albeit confirmed (we had allocated seats from the time of the award months before the flight). When BA phon d me in Chicago they offered first but 4 days later which I declined. Somewhat irritatingly, despite being told first was full when we were rebooked we were offered the chance to purchase an upgrade when we entered the lounge but by then I was beyond wanting to go through the whole saga again. BA subsequently offer d me a space available upgrade on flights to Toronto in July. They found this existing booking and offered the option which I accepted. They then sent an email with confirmation with about 15 conditions, one of which was that it can not be a companion voucher flight, which it is! I replied and pointed this out and have had nothing back. I have to say that the agony of communication with BA is what made me consider a claims management company.

On a lighter note I am a newcomer to this site, having been tipped off on Head for Points and have to say it is absolutely fantastic (and addictive!) I hope to be able to also contribute for the benefit of others in the future. In the meantime thanks very much.
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Old May 9, 18, 11:55 pm
  #564  
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Originally Posted by Definitas View Post
The upgrade was complimentary albeit confirmed (we had allocated seats from the time of the award months before the flight). When BA phon d me in Chicago they offered first but 4 days later which I declined. Somewhat irritatingly, despite being told first was full when we were rebooked we were offered the chance to purchase an upgrade when we entered the lounge but by then I was beyond wanting to go through the whole saga again. BA subsequently offer d me a space available upgrade on flights to Toronto in July.
It is odd that they are quite keen for you to go in First at some point. If you had a confirmed First booking and you ended up in CW then I think you are still OK to be reimbursed for downgrading, though there is some wording in 3.3 which may complicate this a bit since BA may argue you were on some special rate. The bigger issue is that BA have an Involuntary Refund calculation process, which is often more generous than the slightly complex calculation that is needed under EC261. In your case, unusually, I can see this BA calculation is going to come back as zero. Plus the fact that they seem to be offering it on a later flight anyway (subject to the voucher issue) may better handle this. I personally wouldn't communicate BA's errors to them, if it had come up as First in Manage My Booking and then got ticketed then it's likely to stick.

For MCOL, it's the courts that set the deadlines on both you and BA, and in the past BA, along with other airlines have struggled to meet these deadlines - their internal processes are slower than the court timetable. Now BA have tightened this up in the last few years, so apart from automatically stated they are going to defend a case (when in some cases they won't) they now tend to accept the schedule. So long as you are also disciplined about this, filling in the paperwork, do the research and wprk fully with the court process, I would personally do it yourself. If you are using MCOL then you should prepare for a day in court, however if you go for the arbitration option then usually something acceptable comes out at that point - it's a telephone conference. There are court fees involved but the real downside is that it does take a little time. Those who have gone through the process generally wouldn't willing go through it again, on the hassle factor, but at the same time often find it an interesting experience which prepares you for any other supplier not performing to contract.

Your starting point is a formal 16 days letter / notice before action to BA notifying exactly what you want out of them - in cash (though it's ok to give a non cash alternative, e.g. Avios), then use the time to work out how to run the MCOL process. One decision you also have to make is whether to put one claim through online, and then use that as a guinea pig for the other passengers in your party; or to use the paper forms which allow for one than one named claimant.
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Old May 10, 18, 3:51 am
  #565  
 
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Havent been here for a while, but I am curious to know if anyone had been charged the 25GBP for CEDR. My post is high up here (on in the 2017 thread), basically I was denied boarding at LCY Because "we arrived late" (desk at T-25 mins)
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Old May 10, 18, 6:30 am
  #566  
 
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Thanks CWS - it seems strange to me that I could have taken the flight the next morning to LCY and got twice as much. My interpretation was that "exceeds" could be before or after, but I'll take your word for this and at least get Ä500 for the four of us....
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Old May 10, 18, 6:43 am
  #567  
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Originally Posted by kaka View Post
Havent been here for a while, but I am curious to know if anyone had been charged the 25GBP for CEDR. My post is high up here (on in the 2017 thread), basically I was denied boarding at LCY Because "we arrived late" (desk at T-25 mins)
There was a study done (and published between Christmas and New Year!!!) by the CAA into the various ADR providers for the different airlines, and CEDR was the only large one to charge, the others basically negotiated a fee from the airline. The report indicated that the charge did put people off complaining, but that CEDR had one of the highest levels of passenger success - 89% compared to 71% for another ADR provider, suggesting that the charge prevented frivolous complaints. These figures are not broken down by airline, and I very much doubt CEDR upholds nearly 90% of BA complaints.

However as far as I can tell - but not mentioned in the report - CEDR do not actually levy the charge unless it is obviously spurious, it seems to be some sort of fallback. All the offline cases I've been involved with have in their summary said something like "we are not upholding this complaint but we can see the basis of the complaint and therefore we won't be levying the fee". So when you submit a complaint you will be asked to sign something to authorise the £25 charge, but unless you are being silly you're unlikely to pay anything. Disability related complaints are always free.

CAP1602: ADR in the aviation sector - a first review
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Old May 10, 18, 9:28 pm
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Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave View Post
There was a study done (and published between Christmas and New Year!!!) by the CAA into the various ADR providers for the different airlines, and CEDR was the only large one to charge, the others basically negotiated a fee from the airline. The report indicated that the charge did put people off complaining, but that CEDR had one of the highest levels of passenger success - 89% compared to 71% for another ADR provider, suggesting that the charge prevented frivolous complaints. These figures are not broken down by airline, and I very much doubt CEDR upholds nearly 90% of BA complaints.

However as far as I can tell - but not mentioned in the report - CEDR do not actually levy the charge unless it is obviously spurious, it seems to be some sort of fallback. All the offline cases I've been involved with have in their summary said something like "we are not upholding this complaint but we can see the basis of the complaint and therefore we won't be levying the fee". So when you submit a complaint you will be asked to sign something to authorise the £25 charge, but unless you are being silly you're unlikely to pay anything. Disability related complaints are always free.

CAP1602: ADR in the aviation sector - a first review
thanks mate. i was curious since i havent heard a lot about it here (nor do i read EVERY post )
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Old May 11, 18, 2:37 am
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@lincolnlite; has brought to my attention a comment on a post over at HfP today which seems to indicate that someone got EC261 compensation for a cancelled 787 flight (BA33), which was grounded due to engine issues.

I know: it's not much detail to go on at all.

Perhaps someone knows how to find more detail as to whether it might be the dreaded RR Trent 1000 Pack C issue, the OP mentions "LHR to KUL on 23/11/17 on the BA33"?
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Old May 11, 18, 7:19 am
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Originally Posted by newyorklondon View Post
@lincolnlite; has brought to my attention a comment on a post over at HfP today which seems to indicate that someone got EC261 compensation for a cancelled 787 flight (BA33), which was grounded due to engine issues.

I know: it's not much detail to go on at all.

Perhaps someone knows how to find more detail as to whether it might be the dreaded RR Trent 1000 Pack C issue, the OP mentions "LHR to KUL on 23/11/17 on the BA33"?
I had my LAX-LHR BA280 on April 22 cancelled. It was supposed to be the 787 and, of course, the inbound flight (BA281) from LHR was also cancelled. BA notified me about the cancellation on April 18th, so like 4 days earlier. Of course, BA said it was "operational circumstances outside of our control which prevented the aircraft operating as scheduled," and denied compensation, even though they obviously knew they were going to cancel and could have put me on the earlier afternoon flight (I tried to change to this flight both online, by phone and at the airport but though seats showed as available in my class of service (PE,) my request was refused,) vs the night flight, 5+ hours later. So, I just filed the CEDR case. We'll see what they come up with.
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