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The 2018 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

The 2018 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004

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Old Dec 17, 18, 5:14 am   -   Wikipost
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Wiki Link
Link to Text of the regulations in PDF format

How about a Wiki to post EU comp given/denied as well as results for any CEDR or other process. Especially concerning the 787 issue as there are going to be many claims given all the cancellations.

Mine was April 22 BA280 LAX-LHR cancellation 4 days before flight and rebooked on later flight and arrived 4.5 hrs later than origianlly scheduled. BA's response was to deny for "operational" requirements though the 787 "tentatively assigned" G-ZBJG was used instead for a LHR-YUL flight that same day. CEDR filed and awaiting their initial review. Sept 3rd UPDATE: CEDR decision in Article 7 comp awarded in the amount of 600 euro as even though extraordinary circumstances are present in an engine defect as this, BA didn't show that they took reasonable steps to avoid the cancellation as they have known since Oct 2017 of this issue.
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Old Apr 18, 18, 2:02 pm
  #481  
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
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I have been informed that the ACARS reporting system automatically reports the time that the first door is opened and this forms part of the flight log.

If the case goes to MCOL, claimants can ask the airline for a copy of the flight log as part of the document/information disclosure process. I have never seen an airline volunteer this information when asked, other than via the court.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ACARS

Anyone in the know care to comment!
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Old Apr 18, 18, 2:09 pm
  #482  
 
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But it is not the time the doors open that matters for EU261 it is the time the doors were opened AND passengers able to leave the plane.
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Old Apr 18, 18, 3:41 pm
  #483  
 
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Originally Posted by UKtravelbear View Post
But it is not the time the doors open that matters for EU261 it is the time the doors were opened AND passengers able to leave the plane.
No, it's the time the first door is opened.

This was decided in the Henning judgement of 2014. In case of any doubt, this is the actual wording...

In the light of all of the foregoing considerations, the answer to the referring court’s question is that Articles 2, 5 and 7 of Regulation No 261/2004 must be interpreted as meaning that the concept of ‘arrival time’, which is used to determine the length of the delay to which passengers on a flight have been subject, refers to the time at which at least one of the doors of the aircraft is opened, the assumption being that, at that moment, the passengers are permitted to leave the aircraft.

Which amounts to the same thing.

Last edited by Tyzap; Apr 18, 18 at 3:42 pm Reason: clarity
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Old Apr 18, 18, 4:21 pm
  #484  
 
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No it passengers off otherwise there is nothing to stop an airline just opening the doors and keeping the passengers there for an other half an hour.whilst it waits for a jet bridge or steps

See 11.1 in the very 1st post of this thead which is based on this - and is the follow on sentence from the one you quote

In principle, the situation of passengers on a flight does not change substantially when their aircraft touches down on the runway at the destination airport, when that aircraft reaches its parking position and the parking brakes are engaged or when the chocks are applied, as the passengers continue to be subject, in the enclosed space in which they are sitting, to various constraints. It is only when the passengers are permitted to leave the aircraft and the order is given to that effect to open the doors of the aircraft that the passengers may in principle resume their normal activities without being subject to those constraints
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...EX:62013CJ0452
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Old Apr 19, 18, 12:53 am
  #485  
 
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I think we are splitting hairs here, but it could come down to the last minute or two so it's important to get this right.

Your interpretation would not work because a completely arbitrary time would be used when the first passenger was allowed to leave the aircraft which would have to be recorded somehow. No accurate time of release would be available.

Using the 1st door open method gives an automatically recorded time and relates to the moment the passengers are 'released' to resume their business.That could still take some time in real life situations just like passport control, baggage etc
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Old Apr 19, 18, 2:46 pm
  #486  
 
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However, I don’t think the ACARS “first door open” time differentiates between cargo and passenger doors.

Quite often it will be a cargo door that is opened first.
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Old Apr 19, 18, 4:13 pm
  #487  
 
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Originally Posted by wingtip428 View Post
However, I don’t think the ACARS “first door open” time differentiates between cargo and passenger doors.
I would be surprised if it could not differentiate, aircraft are pretty sophisticated bits of kit, but I stand to be corrected by an authoritative source.
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Old Apr 19, 18, 4:29 pm
  #488  
 
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Originally Posted by Tyzap View Post
I would be surprised if it could not differentiate, aircraft are pretty sophisticated bits of kit, but I stand to be corrected by an authoritative source.
I certainly wouldn’t claim to be authoritative, but I have been flying them for a while now
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Old Apr 19, 18, 6:25 pm
  #489  
 
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Originally Posted by wingtip428 View Post


I certainly wouldn’t claim to be authoritative, but I have been flying them for a while now
Ah okay, happy to accept.

I was thrown by the modest "I don't think" comment.

In that case, and for future accuracy, would you be able to clarify how the 1st passenger door opening is recorded? Understand if that's an ask too far.
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Old Apr 20, 18, 4:56 am
  #490  
 
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Historical Flight Info

Hi there, just wondered if anyone can help me out as to where I can find the arrival time of a 2015 British Airways flight please? I've contacted the airline and searched online, but haven't managed to find what I'm looking for.

Flight Details:
Number: BA1465
Date: 15/07/2015
Departure Airport: Edinburgh
Arrival Airport: London Heathrow

Many thanks in anticipation
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Old Apr 20, 18, 5:09 am
  #491  
 
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Originally Posted by lisamoir View Post
Flight Details:
Number: BA1465
Date: 15/07/2015
Departure Airport: Edinburgh
Arrival Airport: London Heathrow

[
assuming you are asking to see if you have a claim.
Bottonline shows - Our data shows that your flight arrived less than 3 hours late. However, as good as our data is, there can be times when something is missed. Therefore, if you have any information or evidence which shows that your flight was indeed delayed for more than 3 hours, we'd be happy to look into this for you.
EUClaim shows - Your flight had an arrival delay of less than three hours. To be entitled to compensation under EC Regulation 261/2004 you arrival delay must be three hours or more.
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Old Apr 20, 18, 5:28 am
  #492  
 
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Thanks for the reply Caz312. It is in relation to a claim but not directly this flight.

Basically was booked on Virgin Flight due to land in Heathrow at 20:40, which was cancelled whilst we were awaiting boarding. We were re-routed on the BA Flight above which was subsequently delayed meaning we arrived in Heathrow 2+ hours of our original scheduled time. To be honest I'd normally have taken it on the chin and not bothered, but Virgin's handling of the cancellation at the time, and subsequently was abhorrent. I emailed to express my dissatisfaction over a number of issues (baggage off-loaded and left unattended; lack of announcements and communication; no grounds assistance etc), the reason for travel was to attend a family wedding where I was a bridesmaid, the unexpected later arrival caused some logistical issues and meant we missed the pre-wedding celebrations. All round it was disappointing, but more so was the airline's lack of interest in any of the highlighted issues. That prompted me to file a claim, which was declined; Having been given differing reasons from the airline why the claim was declined and believing it is a legitimate claim I am pursuing it. They keep quoting the scheduled BA flight time as the arrival, which I know was delayed, but I cannot remember exactly so was hoping to get a note of it.

The virgin flight was cancelled due to a technical issue which had been discovered earlier in the day.
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Old Apr 20, 18, 6:04 am
  #493  
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Originally Posted by lisamoir View Post
Thanks for the reply Caz312. It is in relation to a claim but not directly this flight.

Basically was booked on Virgin Flight due to land in Heathrow at 20:40, which was cancelled whilst we were awaiting boarding. We were re-routed on the BA Flight above which was subsequently delayed meaning we arrived in Heathrow 2+ hours of our original scheduled time.
Welcome to Flyertalk lisamoir and welcome to the BA Forum. Thanks for reverting back, but in essence this extra detail changes everything. If it's a cancelled flight then the Operating Airline is Virgin and under 4.1.iii of EC261 it is their responsibility to get you to LHR within 2 hours of the scheduled departure. It BA were a bit late then it is still Virgin that is the frame here. I would suggest you use what you honestly believe to be the arrival time - it's up to Virgin to prove differently. The exception would be if the cancellation was due to extraordinary circumstances.
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Old Apr 20, 18, 6:16 am
  #494  
 
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Thank you, that is really helpful - whilst I knew that Virgin are the airline responsible for this claim, I didn't realise the onus is on Virgin (rather than me!) to prove otherwise re: actual arrival time. Super thanks for your help
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Old Apr 20, 18, 11:14 am
  #495  
 
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Originally Posted by Tyzap View Post
Ah okay, happy to accept.

I was thrown by the modest "I don't think" comment.

In that case, and for future accuracy, would you be able to clarify how the 1st passenger door opening is recorded? Understand if that's an ask too far.
That I’m afraid I don’t know the answer to. Or if it’s even routinely recorded at all...

I was trying not to speak too definitively as I believe the ACARS fit varies by airline and aircraft type, and I only have my own experience to go on. It’s also not something we look at routinely.

However I’m fairly certain I’ve only ever seen a generic “doors open” time, triggered by the first pax or cargo door to open after brakes set.

I’ll try to take a closer look the next time we’re waiting ages for a jetbridge!
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