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-   -   The 2018 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004 (https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-executive-club/1885572-2018-ba-compensation-thread-your-guide-regulation-ec261-2004-a.html)

testycal Mar 13, 2018 4:38 am

More background de icing (if readers interested...if not I will cease doing so)
 
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...ter_resilience

see pdf 4 end page download for comments by Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators (GAPAN) re Heathrow de icing issues.

rapidex Mar 13, 2018 4:42 am

Sounds to me like the Instrument Landing System at Dubrovnic was out. This is the large yellow ariels you see at the end of the runway, and down to the airport to sort, so no EU261.

KARFA Mar 13, 2018 4:43 am


Originally Posted by bubbah (Post 29518411)
Hi we flew LGW to Dubrovnik yesterday BA2678 and should have arrived at 11.45. We were then told that because of low cloud and the fact that Dubrovnik airport were undergoing work the equipment that helps landing in those situations was not working. The pilot was then left in a holding pattern for over 40 minutes in case the cloud lifted he said he had enough fuel, good. Then he said we would be going to land at Split.. On arrival at Split we were then transported to Dubrovnik by coach and arrived at Dubrovnik after 6pm.
...

I know weather can be an issue when trying for EU261 but this was down to a piece of equipment. The pilot and CSD told us this. Would we have a claim. We had arrived at our destination although not the airport as the coach driver dropped us off at the bus station, it was 5 hours 15 minutes and would have been 6 hours if we had gone back to the airport. Thank you



Dubrovnik airport has two possible runways, 12 and 30. Only 12 is equipped with any ILS system, 30 only has non-precision approaches available. The ILS on runway 12 is CAT1 only which means it is not possible to do an autoland on that runway and land in near-zero visibility.

Looking at the weather at Dubrovnik airport yesterday it does seem there was quite a bit of low cloud from 300ft upwards around the time you were due in. The wind was coming from the south east yesterday morning so the preferred runway would have been 12. The low cloud wouldn't have been too much of a problem for a CAT1 ILS approach on runway 12 as you would have probably broken out of the low cloud in time to see the runway. However, I note that according to some aviation databases the ILS on runway 12 is out of service at the moment. This means that much higher levels of visibility are required. Depending on which other approach type was selected they would have needed to be able to see the ground or approach lights no lower than 800ft at best (some of the other approaches require even higher levels).

I am afraid it seems this is a combination of poor weather and airport equipment out of service which means it is unlikely BA would compensate you for something outside their control.





KARFA Mar 13, 2018 4:46 am


Originally Posted by testycal (Post 29518458)
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...ter_resilience

see pdf 4 end page download for comments by Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators (GAPAN) re Heathrow de icing issues.

Again similar to the Begg report you previously posted this concerns HAL's preparation . As I noted, for the recent snow events in December and last month it wasn’t HAL resources which were lacking, they are responsible for taxiways and runways and they were mostly clear. It was BA's own de-icing of it's own aircraft which was the issue. That's what you need to focus on, so information on BA's own resource levels not HAL's.

corporate-wage-slave Mar 13, 2018 4:57 am

DBV is fairly similar to GIB, in that diversions to SPU are quite common due to the tricky (but very beautiful) approach, the surrounding hills (to which the clouds cling) and sea winds. The other costs you picked up regarding the taxi are consequential losses, which is more for any insurance you may have. It was a bit unfortunate the coach didn't offer to drop people in DBV town centre, it's pretty much en route to DBV, - DBV is about 15 road miles the other side of Dubrovnik city. I can't see you getting anywhere on the EC261 side. For the return flight, I am able to see the seatmap on ExpertFlyer, so it may just be a temporary glitch. They are reporting the lowest sales bucket as G3, which normally suggests a fairly full but not oversold flight.

bubbah Mar 13, 2018 6:25 am

Thank you to all of you for such helpful comments. I am always amazed at the information that can be provided on here. No seat map still on manage my booking. They handed us out the info on EU261 on the bus. Missed a few hours in Dubrovnik but the coach journey from Split through mountains and on the coast was stunning, also went into Bosnia Herzogovina and showed passports .

foolonthehill Mar 13, 2018 7:45 am

Quick query for those more in the know than me, if possible please. In relation to BA2286 last night (2100 12/3/18 GVA-LCY) which was diverted to SEN (London Southend) as it missed the curfew at City by a few minutes.

The delayed departure was initially caused a discrepancy between the onboard manifest and the gate count. (Given how clueless the person on the gate seemed when I passed, I would suspect an error there, but could be wrong)
Despite 45 mins of calling out names to check who was on board, they failed to reconcile, so had to return to stand and get some ground crew back on board.
Eventually we left an hour late, missed the landing slot and dropped in Southend to unanimous disappointed cries onboard - including, I assume, from the crew!
Long queues at understandably lightly-manned immigration desks, given the arrival of another flight just ahead of us.
A coach apparently available to City, but a queue of people still waiting when I bailed out and got a cab directly home at 2330.

My questions are thus:
- Would I have any sort of claim for a refund of my cab home, particularly on the basis that, had they dropped me at LCY, it would have been too late to get a train home from there? (I assume not)
- Would EC261 apply on the basis that the coach didn't make it to LCY within 3 hours of scheduled arrival (assuming I had taken it)?
- Does cancelling the journey part way through, by making my own way from SEN, stop the clock in terms of delay for EC261? ie is my delay 2hrs because I left their care at 2330, even if remaining passengers were (presumably) delivered to LCY after 0035, over 3hrs late?

Thanks in advance.

corporate-wage-slave Mar 13, 2018 7:53 am


Originally Posted by foolonthehill (Post 29519025)
- Would I have any sort of claim for a refund of my cab home, particularly on the basis that, had they dropped me at LCY, it would have been too late to get a train home from there?
- Would EC261 apply on the basis that the coach didn't make it to LCY within 3 hours of scheduled arrival (assuming I had taken it)?
- Does cancelling the journey part way through, by making my own way from SEN, stop the clock in terms of delay for EC261? ie is my delay 2hrs because I left their care at 2330, even if remaining passengers were (presumably) delivered to LCY after 0035, over 3hrs late?

1) You may get a £50 contribution to the taxi fare. SEN has a fast train service to Stratford, for the next time..........
2 and 3) I can't make out the specific arrival timings here, but you would need to demonstrate a 3 hour delay somewhere, ideally to SEN (presumably not) but alternatively to LCY by coach. But the fact that you were not on the coach may complicate this. Perhaps you could revert with the relevant times, in terms of originally booked, actual, SEN, LCY and your home potentially, and then I can suggest the best line of approach.

It's possible they will pay the 3 hour amount anyway if you send a brief note in and not give too many details in your claim.

foolonthehill Mar 13, 2018 8:08 am


Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave (Post 29519056)
1) You may get a £50 contribution to the taxi fare. SEN has a fast train service to Stratford, for the next time..........
2 and 3) I can't make out the specific arrival timings here, but you would need to demonstrate a 3 hour delay somewhere, ideally to SEN (presumably not) but alternatively to LCY by coach. But the fact that you were not on the coach may complicate this. Perhaps you could revert with the relevant times, in terms of originally booked, actual, SEN, LCY and your home potentially, and then I can suggest the best line of approach.

It's possible they will pay the 3 hour amount anyway if you send a brief note in and not give too many details in your claim.

Thanks CWS - helpful and practical as ever! My plan is to request the full 3 hour with limited details as you suggest.

I would have gladly got a fast train to central London, but (as confirmed by the pilot) we arrived too late to make it. The last stopping service left at 2335, but that would also have meant getting a cab to Southend Central anyway.

Sorry, should have been clearer on timings:

Scheduled Arrival at LCY: 2135
Actual Arrival at SEN: 2237 (according to Flightradar24)
My Departure from SEN: 2330 (after immigration/baggage)
Likely Arrival at LCY via coach: no earlier than 0045 (assuming 1hr15 journey leaving when I gave up)
Actual arrival at home: 0100 (hence the reason I didn't fancy another 1hr+ journey from LCY)

WorldLux Mar 13, 2018 8:38 am

I'm currently contemplating on whether to go down the CEDR/MCOL route with one claim. In the first reply, BA insisted on adverse weather conditions. When I provided elements indicating that this wasn't the case (notably by the observation that competitors operated their flights), BA moved away from weather conditions to ATC reducing the number of departures from Heathrow.

I'm still not convinced that a reduction of rotations is inherently an extraordinary circumstance as BA can prioritise larger aircraft in an attempt to avoid the increased costs of accommodating a larger amount of passengers. I'm currently sifting through flight data to see whether my hypothesis that BA prioritised large airplanes over smaller one is correct.

Any thoughts?

corporate-wage-slave Mar 13, 2018 9:55 am


Originally Posted by foolonthehill (Post 29519119)
Scheduled Arrival at LCY: 2135
Actual Arrival at SEN: 2237 (according to Flightradar24)
My Departure from SEN: 2330 (after immigration/baggage)
Likely Arrival at LCY via coach: no earlier than 0045 (assuming 1hr15 journey leaving when I gave up)
Actual arrival at home: 0100 (hence the reason I didn't fancy another 1hr+ journey from LCY)

Thank you for these details. The problem here is twofold: you can't ping SEN's delays on BACF (note that any MCOL would have to go to BACF not BA). At LCY it wouldn't take more than 10 minutes, and SEN is usually just as slick, but the diversion clearly got SEN on the hop. Secondly your next line of approach, as I see it, is that you expected to be home at 22:45 (?) and you actually got home at 01:00, which is still under 3 hours. If you had been on the coach, and you were over 3 hours late back to LCY yes you could have claimed Article 7 compensation, but I can't see BA paying for a hypothetical delay that you didn't actually have. Also BA have in the past regarded all London airports as being the same for timings - this is dodgy anyway, but in the case of SEN really stretching the point. But it wouldn't entirely surprise me if BA said you were just an hour late.

Your two possible approaches are to claim for the delay and taxi fare without giving details just in case the flight has been marked as being OK for this; alternatively forget Article 7, just ask for the taxi fare and perhaps some customer remediation for the hassle concerned (i.e. some Avios).

710 77345 Mar 13, 2018 11:08 am


Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave (Post 29519572)
you can't ping SEN's delays on BACF

I disagree - the delay is timed on the time it takes you to get to your original destination, and if your intermediate airport takes longer to get out of than LCY then it's going to be included. BA regarding all LON airports as the same is not just 'dodgy' but totally wrong, and wouldn't stand up.

I'd suggest that your claim is that the arranged transport would get you to your destination airport 3 hours+ late.

foolonthehill Mar 13, 2018 12:43 pm


Originally Posted by corporate-wage-slave (Post 29519572)
Your two possible approaches are to claim for the delay and taxi fare without giving details just in case the flight has been marked as being OK for this; alternatively forget Article 7, just ask for the taxi fare and perhaps some customer remediation for the hassle concerned (i.e. some Avios).

That is broadly the conclusion I came to - I would (being reasonable in my head) be happy with a refund of the not-insignificant taxi fare + maybe some bonus avios. I don't really think this case necessarily warrants "compensation", as I wasn't more than about 2 hours late home, and would only have wanted to request it if it was the more likely route to achieving some cost recovery.

As much as I'm glad to take compensation owed, I'm not normally of the view that one should claim where the big-picture test is not passed - ie. delay to final destination (home) is less than 3 hours. I do wonder however, what the situation was for those on the coach: with no BA staff involved, what were the chances of any being informed of their rights if they did arrive 3+hrs late into LCY?

Thanks for the help cws.

testycal Mar 13, 2018 9:58 pm

Priority
 

Originally Posted by WorldLux (Post 29519249)
I'm currently contemplating on whether to go down the CEDR/MCOL route with one claim. In the first reply, BA insisted on adverse weather conditions. When I provided elements indicating that this wasn't the case (notably by the observation that competitors operated their flights), BA moved away from weather conditions to ATC reducing the number of departures from Heathrow.

I'm still not convinced that a reduction of rotations is inherently an extraordinary circumstance as BA can prioritise larger aircraft in an attempt to avoid the increased costs of accommodating a larger amount of passengers. I'm currently sifting through flight data to see whether my hypothesis that BA prioritised large airplanes over smaller one is correct.

Any thoughts?

I sat on the BA163 for 4 hours on Feb 28 and Mar 1 while I watched at least one A380 beside our plane being de-iced and it occurred to me that there was no rhyme nor reason why we were not next in queue as we were physically beside the A380..it appeared to me that BA picked and chose the departing aircraft based on factors other than priority in line or passenger convenience

simons1 Mar 14, 2018 12:51 am


Originally Posted by testycal (Post 29522212)
I sat on the BA163 for 4 hours on Feb 28 and Mar 1 while I watched at least one A380 beside our plane being de-iced and it occurred to me that there was no rhyme nor reason why we were not next in queue as we were physically beside the A380..it appeared to me that BA picked and chose the departing aircraft based on factors other than priority in line or passenger convenience

Maybe being physically next to the A380 was not the only factor involved.

And maybe your convenience was not the only passenger convenience involved.

Honestly if that is one of the central arguments in an MCOL case I would consider chances of a successful outcome to be small.


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