May 22, 2018, 3:28 am
Last edit by: serfty
Link to Text of the regulations in PDF format
How about a Wiki to post EU comp given/denied as well as results for any CEDR or other process. Especially concerning the 787 issue as there are going to be many claims given all the cancellations.
Mine was April 22 BA280 LAX-LHR cancellation 4 days before flight and rebooked on later flight and arrived 4.5 hrs later than origianlly scheduled. BA's response was to deny for "operational" requirements though the 787 "tentatively assigned" G-ZBJG was used instead for a LHR-YUL flight that same day. CEDR filed and awaiting their initial review. Sept 3rd UPDATE: CEDR decision in Article 7 comp awarded in the amount of 600 euro as even though extraordinary circumstances are present in an engine defect as this, BA didn't show that they took reasonable steps to avoid the cancellation as they have known since Oct 2017 of this issue.
How about a Wiki to post EU comp given/denied as well as results for any CEDR or other process. Especially concerning the 787 issue as there are going to be many claims given all the cancellations.
Mine was April 22 BA280 LAX-LHR cancellation 4 days before flight and rebooked on later flight and arrived 4.5 hrs later than origianlly scheduled. BA's response was to deny for "operational" requirements though the 787 "tentatively assigned" G-ZBJG was used instead for a LHR-YUL flight that same day. CEDR filed and awaiting their initial review. Sept 3rd UPDATE: CEDR decision in Article 7 comp awarded in the amount of 600 euro as even though extraordinary circumstances are present in an engine defect as this, BA didn't show that they took reasonable steps to avoid the cancellation as they have known since Oct 2017 of this issue.
The 2018 BA compensation thread: Your guide to Regulation EC261/2004
Feb 15, 2018, 9:55 pm
#196
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
I think it's marginal cases like this where it is worth looking towards Bott & Co. Sure there is a cost but I think otherwise your case is highly debatable as weather gives an obvious starting argument for BA to put forward.
If Bott won't take it, then I would take it on the chin and move on.
If Bott won't take it, then I would take it on the chin and move on.
Feb 15, 2018, 11:38 pm
#197
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Putney
Programs: BA Gold
Posts: 293
An interesting data point / piece of “case law” for this board. Last summer we had a 3 hr 5m delay from BCN to LGW. Flights were purchased from BA, operated by Vueling.
The delay started out as a late inbound aircraft. When we were eventually bussed to the aircraft we were held at the steps for c. 15 mins, and then returned to the airport. There was then a switch of aircraft. Vueling were clearly aware of the possible compensation claim and it felt like they rushed departure and flew like the clappers to beat the 3hr deadline. They even gave out 50€ discount vouchers on board.
We submitted our EU261 claim to BA who immediately rejected it on the grounds Vueling operated the flight. We repeated the process with Vueling who rejected on the grounds that the aircraft had “suffered a lightning strike” and was inoperable. They then stopped responding to any further correspondence. We had no way of proving whether the lightning strike was genuine. Knowing airlines, frankly, I wouldn’t put it past them to make it up.
At this point, and following further research, we engaged Bott & Co who had previously won a case involving lightning against Ryanair.
Court papers were served and I’m pleased to report, we won.
Morale of the story - if you think you might be being fobbed off with a lightning strike excuse there’s now st least two cases where compensation has been paid!
The delay started out as a late inbound aircraft. When we were eventually bussed to the aircraft we were held at the steps for c. 15 mins, and then returned to the airport. There was then a switch of aircraft. Vueling were clearly aware of the possible compensation claim and it felt like they rushed departure and flew like the clappers to beat the 3hr deadline. They even gave out 50€ discount vouchers on board.
We submitted our EU261 claim to BA who immediately rejected it on the grounds Vueling operated the flight. We repeated the process with Vueling who rejected on the grounds that the aircraft had “suffered a lightning strike” and was inoperable. They then stopped responding to any further correspondence. We had no way of proving whether the lightning strike was genuine. Knowing airlines, frankly, I wouldn’t put it past them to make it up.
At this point, and following further research, we engaged Bott & Co who had previously won a case involving lightning against Ryanair.
Court papers were served and I’m pleased to report, we won.
Morale of the story - if you think you might be being fobbed off with a lightning strike excuse there’s now st least two cases where compensation has been paid!
Feb 17, 2018, 11:24 am
#198
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 48
Thanks all, I have submitted a claim and will let you know how it turns out!
Feb 20, 2018, 2:01 am
#199
Join Date: Jan 2018
Programs: BA
Posts: 13
So, it's cost BA more money (due to the court fees), cost them staff time (both the call centre and legal departments), and I'll now try to avoid BA in the future. It'd surely have been best to pay up straight away for a cost they agreed to pay in the first place!
Thanks for the guidance.
Feb 20, 2018, 5:27 am
#200
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: London
Posts: 3,500
So, it's cost BA more money (due to the court fees), cost them staff time (both the call centre and legal departments), and I'll now try to avoid BA in the future. It'd surely have been best to pay up straight away for a cost they agreed to pay in the first place!
Thanks for the guidance.
Thanks for the guidance.
Feb 20, 2018, 6:13 pm
#201
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 1
Re. Snow chaos on the 10th/11th dec 17
Apologies for referring to a previous(excellent thread). Sadly that one is closed and only today I heard back from BA. Please advise:
We were due on the BA249 to Rio on the 11/12/17. Our flight was cancelled around 20:00the night before and rebooked/flown 24h later. Hotel expenses have been agreed to be reimbursed, no issues. My query is about the compensation viability. As other members on the previous thread, there’s enough to suggest the issue on the 11th wasn’t the weather, but instead the operational issues and backlog from the day before.
Does anyone have any info on successful EC261 claims for that scenario? I have followed BA complaints route and they’re standing firm on the bad weather justification - so no money for us. I would now have to move it to the adjudicator body, so any support and advice much appreciated.
Thank you you in advance!
We were due on the BA249 to Rio on the 11/12/17. Our flight was cancelled around 20:00the night before and rebooked/flown 24h later. Hotel expenses have been agreed to be reimbursed, no issues. My query is about the compensation viability. As other members on the previous thread, there’s enough to suggest the issue on the 11th wasn’t the weather, but instead the operational issues and backlog from the day before.
Does anyone have any info on successful EC261 claims for that scenario? I have followed BA complaints route and they’re standing firm on the bad weather justification - so no money for us. I would now have to move it to the adjudicator body, so any support and advice much appreciated.
Thank you you in advance!
Feb 21, 2018, 2:01 am
#202
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
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Welcome to Flyertalk and welcome to the BA forum Luamorena74, it's good to see you here and I hope that you will be able to participate elsewhere in this amazing resource.
You are correct that BA directly won't move on anything vaguely looking like "meteorological conditions incompatible with the operation of the flight concerned,". No airline ever has to my knowledge. So you are correct that you need to look elsewhere for a remedy, and to be honest I cannot see CEDR coming out in your favour: they do rule against BA and other airlines if there is a clear case, there have been a few cases where they found in favour of customers on a balance of probability basis, but generally CEDR is fairly conservative and sticks quite rigidly to case law, more rigidly than the overarching intent of the Regulation suggests (in my view). So MCOL would be a better way of proceeding, and for MCOL you need to think through very carefully how to present your case. What exactly were the weather conditions at the time of departure? What were the circumstances leading up to the cancellation? Was there more BA could do? Were there other flights operating at the time? Were there flights to Rio operating within a similar time frame? What, if anything, did the airport say to BA about cancellations? So you need to get quite precise on this, and work it around the Regulation's wordings fair carefully. If you are able to construct a line of argument that suggests that this was operationally driven rather than weather, then BA will in the MCOL process present their evidence too, in more detail than you have seen before.
There is a bias in the Regulation, it's very clearly stated, which is in favour of the passenger. If your case is strong then it is possible BA will pay you off on a non liability basis, but generally speaking BA will meet your arguments and take it through.
You are correct that BA directly won't move on anything vaguely looking like "meteorological conditions incompatible with the operation of the flight concerned,". No airline ever has to my knowledge. So you are correct that you need to look elsewhere for a remedy, and to be honest I cannot see CEDR coming out in your favour: they do rule against BA and other airlines if there is a clear case, there have been a few cases where they found in favour of customers on a balance of probability basis, but generally CEDR is fairly conservative and sticks quite rigidly to case law, more rigidly than the overarching intent of the Regulation suggests (in my view). So MCOL would be a better way of proceeding, and for MCOL you need to think through very carefully how to present your case. What exactly were the weather conditions at the time of departure? What were the circumstances leading up to the cancellation? Was there more BA could do? Were there other flights operating at the time? Were there flights to Rio operating within a similar time frame? What, if anything, did the airport say to BA about cancellations? So you need to get quite precise on this, and work it around the Regulation's wordings fair carefully. If you are able to construct a line of argument that suggests that this was operationally driven rather than weather, then BA will in the MCOL process present their evidence too, in more detail than you have seen before.
There is a bias in the Regulation, it's very clearly stated, which is in favour of the passenger. If your case is strong then it is possible BA will pay you off on a non liability basis, but generally speaking BA will meet your arguments and take it through.
Feb 21, 2018, 4:37 am
#203
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: London
Programs: BA GGL, HH Diamond, IHG Spire, Marriott Titanium
Posts: 160
I'm hoping someone can give me some guidance on the next steps for me...
I flew on BA2153 LGW - BGI on 17th Feb, due to depart at 1.40pm and arrive 6.30pm local time. On check in at 11.30 they were already aware that they needed a part and they were trying to source it from Heathrow, and if not there Cardiff. The next few hours were filled with the same unhelpful information until eventually we were told the part arrived at 5pm and we were given a new departure time of 5.30pm, with an estimated arrival 9.20pm and we were quickly boarded. I did check with this helpful board and noted that the important issue was 'doors open' rather than landing time. We boarded (the part was still being fitted near the galley area), and the crew mentioned they were 10 mins from going off duty, so we were grateful that we even managed to take off! We took off at about 5.50pm and the flight was incredibly quick, and we landed at 9.24pm. However that's when it gets interesting. With mobile phone in hand myself (and I noted others on board), watched to see when the steps arrived and doors opened, and, as luck would have it it wasn't until the clock had ticked over to 9.30pm. The 180 mins delay. I was at the front of the plane and could see the crew and the doors and know for a fact it wasn't before 9.30pm (honestly if it had been 9.29pm, I'd have walked away without thinking more off it than what bad luck!), and using my phone I know it's an accurate time (it agreed to the landing time stated).
I contacted BA and they have blatantly lied about the doors. They tell me 'Our flight records are updated by the flight crew and this is the information we use when calculating compensation eligibility'. and 'Your flight landed at 21:24 and the doors opened at 21:28'
This simply can't be true. What should I do next? Do the flight crew fill in forms, are they accurate? And how can they fill in a form to that specificity when they are in the cockpit and not watching the door? And I'm sure they were fully aware of the ramifications of stating 9.28pm or 9.30pm!
I asked BA to provide the evidence of this and they have sent a FOI request form. Is that the next step?
I know it's on the deadline, but this flight really was 180mins late to doors opening. I also feel that the legislation is surely there for exactly these sort of circumstances - why didn't they have the part to hand, or at Heathrow, and why did it take 5 hours to get it from Cardiff to Gatwick?
Anyway, if anyone can give me a suggestion of the next best steps I'd be very grateful.
I flew on BA2153 LGW - BGI on 17th Feb, due to depart at 1.40pm and arrive 6.30pm local time. On check in at 11.30 they were already aware that they needed a part and they were trying to source it from Heathrow, and if not there Cardiff. The next few hours were filled with the same unhelpful information until eventually we were told the part arrived at 5pm and we were given a new departure time of 5.30pm, with an estimated arrival 9.20pm and we were quickly boarded. I did check with this helpful board and noted that the important issue was 'doors open' rather than landing time. We boarded (the part was still being fitted near the galley area), and the crew mentioned they were 10 mins from going off duty, so we were grateful that we even managed to take off! We took off at about 5.50pm and the flight was incredibly quick, and we landed at 9.24pm. However that's when it gets interesting. With mobile phone in hand myself (and I noted others on board), watched to see when the steps arrived and doors opened, and, as luck would have it it wasn't until the clock had ticked over to 9.30pm. The 180 mins delay. I was at the front of the plane and could see the crew and the doors and know for a fact it wasn't before 9.30pm (honestly if it had been 9.29pm, I'd have walked away without thinking more off it than what bad luck!), and using my phone I know it's an accurate time (it agreed to the landing time stated).
I contacted BA and they have blatantly lied about the doors. They tell me 'Our flight records are updated by the flight crew and this is the information we use when calculating compensation eligibility'. and 'Your flight landed at 21:24 and the doors opened at 21:28'
This simply can't be true. What should I do next? Do the flight crew fill in forms, are they accurate? And how can they fill in a form to that specificity when they are in the cockpit and not watching the door? And I'm sure they were fully aware of the ramifications of stating 9.28pm or 9.30pm!
I asked BA to provide the evidence of this and they have sent a FOI request form. Is that the next step?
I know it's on the deadline, but this flight really was 180mins late to doors opening. I also feel that the legislation is surely there for exactly these sort of circumstances - why didn't they have the part to hand, or at Heathrow, and why did it take 5 hours to get it from Cardiff to Gatwick?
Anyway, if anyone can give me a suggestion of the next best steps I'd be very grateful.
Feb 21, 2018, 4:54 am
#204
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,803
If you are certain it was over 3 hours until doors open and the first passenger would be in a position to leave the aircraft then you can think about using MCOL or CEDR. Not sure about CEDR on this specific one, but for MCOL you effectively do a Statement of Truth, so that's were you give a clear commitment to the court in terms of accuracy. Presumably since you had the phone in your hand you took photographic or screen shots to back up your case too. So it would be a case of sending that to court and a judge could decide who is most likely to have the correct time. If it's a 50/50 call then the Regulation has a passenger bias within it, and that may swing the judge's point of view, but if you have that evidence then it will be tricky for BA to contradict it. I wouldn't waste time dealing directly with BA on this, they will believe they have their ducks in a row already and I can't see their view changing.
Feb 21, 2018, 5:31 am
#205
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: London
Programs: BA GGL, HH Diamond, IHG Spire, Marriott Titanium
Posts: 160
Thanks c-w-s! Yes, I took screen shots of the time the door opened, and on the way out as I hit the tarmac (I suspected some pushback!). I could see the door and was also about the 4th person out the plane so I'm 100% sure it was after 9.30pm. Honestly I knew it was that time as I was in a state of knots watching the second hand tick around and waiting to see if we made it!
I totally understand why they make things difficult for us to claim, but to say that the flight deck noted a time of 9.28pm isn't good to hear as it simply isn't true.
I will go straight to MCOL, many thanks again.
I totally understand why they make things difficult for us to claim, but to say that the flight deck noted a time of 9.28pm isn't good to hear as it simply isn't true.
I will go straight to MCOL, many thanks again.
Feb 21, 2018, 5:36 am
#206
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,803
You may want to consider doing a skeleton and a particulars of claim, sending that to BA earlier in the process shortly after setting up the MCOL claim. If you include your evidence (or make it clear it is available for the court) they may throw the towel in early as a result.
Feb 21, 2018, 5:46 am
#207
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: London
Programs: BA GGL, HH Diamond, IHG Spire, Marriott Titanium
Posts: 160
Great idea thank you!
Feb 21, 2018, 7:57 pm
#208
Join Date: Feb 2018
Programs: not sure
Posts: 10
Finally got a partial Response from BA today to my 3 December 2017 substantiation queries and numerous follow up reminders which is as below
Not impressed as BA originally replied on 3 Dec that their records showed that they notified me that my 6 Nov flight was cancelled on 3rd Nov. BA have now contradicted themselves as they now advise they informed the travel agent not me casting doubt on the reliability of the BA record system. BA have still not advised why they did not offer an alternative carrier as they knew at least 60 hours in advance the flight was being cancelled. Surely BA have a responsibility to notify their BA passenger/ customer when their operation does not go according to plan and at what stage do they stop passing the buck back to the agents T&C. If I arrive at the airport for my 2.05 flight and its delayed by 6 hours do they notify the agent who is in bed as per the T&C. Interestingly they e mailed me a " How did we do" questionnaire so they had my contact details and why was that not sent to the agent.
So BA needed 60 hours (Less LHR to Abu Dhabi flight time ) to complete the relevant checks/defects requested by Boing????. How do I verify this BA claim as being reliable/legitimate as BA have still failed to submit the 3rd party verification I requested.
BA response follows
Thanks for getting back to us. I apologise for the delay in replying to you.
I've checked our records and can see that the flight cancellation message has been sent to your travel agent on 03 November 2017 at 14:45 as your ticket was brought from them.
I'd like to inform you that, as you've booked your ticket from travel agent it is their responsibility to explain you all the terms and conditions on your ticket. So I'd request you to contact your travel agent as they are in the best position to deal with this matter.
I'd also like to inform you that, your flight BA0072 on 06 November 2017 was cancelled due to a potential manufacturing defect on the aircraft. Boeing have requested we take all affected aircraft out of service and complete the relevant checks, until we're able to confirm the issue is resolved. The problem relates to the engines on the aircraft, and as I'm sure you can appreciate, safety is our number one priority. Unfortunately, British Airways are one of many airlines to be affected by this problem.
As this issue is out of our control, under EU legislation I'm afraid we're not liable for a compensation payment in this situation. I'm really sorry to disappoint you.
Thanks for following this up with us. Please feel free to contact us if we can help you any further and I hope we have the chance to welcome you on board again soon.
Best regards
Not impressed as BA originally replied on 3 Dec that their records showed that they notified me that my 6 Nov flight was cancelled on 3rd Nov. BA have now contradicted themselves as they now advise they informed the travel agent not me casting doubt on the reliability of the BA record system. BA have still not advised why they did not offer an alternative carrier as they knew at least 60 hours in advance the flight was being cancelled. Surely BA have a responsibility to notify their BA passenger/ customer when their operation does not go according to plan and at what stage do they stop passing the buck back to the agents T&C. If I arrive at the airport for my 2.05 flight and its delayed by 6 hours do they notify the agent who is in bed as per the T&C. Interestingly they e mailed me a " How did we do" questionnaire so they had my contact details and why was that not sent to the agent.
So BA needed 60 hours (Less LHR to Abu Dhabi flight time ) to complete the relevant checks/defects requested by Boing????. How do I verify this BA claim as being reliable/legitimate as BA have still failed to submit the 3rd party verification I requested.
BA response follows
Thanks for getting back to us. I apologise for the delay in replying to you.
I've checked our records and can see that the flight cancellation message has been sent to your travel agent on 03 November 2017 at 14:45 as your ticket was brought from them.
I'd like to inform you that, as you've booked your ticket from travel agent it is their responsibility to explain you all the terms and conditions on your ticket. So I'd request you to contact your travel agent as they are in the best position to deal with this matter.
I'd also like to inform you that, your flight BA0072 on 06 November 2017 was cancelled due to a potential manufacturing defect on the aircraft. Boeing have requested we take all affected aircraft out of service and complete the relevant checks, until we're able to confirm the issue is resolved. The problem relates to the engines on the aircraft, and as I'm sure you can appreciate, safety is our number one priority. Unfortunately, British Airways are one of many airlines to be affected by this problem.
As this issue is out of our control, under EU legislation I'm afraid we're not liable for a compensation payment in this situation. I'm really sorry to disappoint you.
Thanks for following this up with us. Please feel free to contact us if we can help you any further and I hope we have the chance to welcome you on board again soon.
Best regards
Last edited by NWIFlyer; Feb 23, 2018 at 4:36 pm Reason: Remove agent’s name per privacy policy
Feb 23, 2018, 3:02 pm
#209
Join Date: Dec 2017
Posts: 3
I wanted to pop back and give an update on my claim (flight cancellation due to Mixed Fleet crew strikes in August, flying LHR > DFW). I went the CEDR route and am pleased to say that they agreed with my defense and have ordered a reimbursement of my travel expenses to and from the airport (BA did not offer to cover this at any point) as well as the EC261. It has taken a while, as my first appeal was last year in August, but we got there in the end. I am now awaiting payment.
Huge thanks to everyone who contributes to this thread and has shared similar experiences - it has been invaluable.
Huge thanks to everyone who contributes to this thread and has shared similar experiences - it has been invaluable.
Feb 23, 2018, 3:22 pm
#210
Moderator, Iberia Airlines, Airport Lounges, and Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Original Poster
Join Date: Feb 2010
Programs: BA Lifetime Gold; Flying Blue Life Platinum; LH Sen.; Hilton Diamond; Kemal Kebabs Prized Customer
Posts: 63,803
Originally Posted by EC261 Article 5
4. The burden of proof concerning the questions as to whether and when the passenger has been informed of the cancellation of the flight shall rest with the operating air carrier.
You case basically hinges on (a) failure to inform you of the cancellation - though I can't see from your previous posts exactly when you found out (b) that this is a technical wear and tear issue, not a manufacturer's emergency recall (c) failure to do everything possible to mitigate the inconvenience. From the limited information so far provided, I would stop wasting time on this and proceed with the steps outlined in post 1, give 16 days notice and proceed with MCOL, I can't see BA changing their position from an internal exchange of webmails.