Is De-Icing Really Considered 'Extraordinary Circumstances'
Dec 12, 2017, 3:00 am
#61
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: South East, UK
Programs: BA Gold / GfL, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 2,432
Dec 12, 2017, 3:07 am
#62
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,655
I really don’t understand the BA major disruption handling process and why over the years it hasn’t improved. Disruption happens to BA at least once a year, sometimes twice. Whether it be weather related, IT related, or some other cause, it’s inevitable and always poorly handled.
Getting rebooked usually involves a huge queue at an airport. You can never get through on the phone. If you can get through then they’ll normally rebook only on oneworld carriers. The entire process is manual and not automated.
It is possible to invest in IT systems that will do this automatically. The major three US carriers have, with Delta in particular having one of the more robust systems in place.
This year, I’m feeling rather smug as the way I’ve avoided the disruption is by taking my business to Lufthansa. I was flying back from SFO on the day when BA cancelled both of their services. Although my flight back to Munich was two hours late, I still had time to connect and have a shower. Incidentally, MUC T2 is a joy to connect in with non-Schengen to non-Schengen connections not requiring immigration or security - just walk from gate to gate. The connection into London was delayed an hour or so, but still came in before the curfew.
Interestingly, I was chatting to a few displaced BA passengers who were on it, all vowing to switch their business.
More and more I’m coming to the conclusion that BA simply isn’t a business that is able to deliver a competent service to customers as things have been cut so far.
Getting rebooked usually involves a huge queue at an airport. You can never get through on the phone. If you can get through then they’ll normally rebook only on oneworld carriers. The entire process is manual and not automated.
It is possible to invest in IT systems that will do this automatically. The major three US carriers have, with Delta in particular having one of the more robust systems in place.
This year, I’m feeling rather smug as the way I’ve avoided the disruption is by taking my business to Lufthansa. I was flying back from SFO on the day when BA cancelled both of their services. Although my flight back to Munich was two hours late, I still had time to connect and have a shower. Incidentally, MUC T2 is a joy to connect in with non-Schengen to non-Schengen connections not requiring immigration or security - just walk from gate to gate. The connection into London was delayed an hour or so, but still came in before the curfew.
Interestingly, I was chatting to a few displaced BA passengers who were on it, all vowing to switch their business.
More and more I’m coming to the conclusion that BA simply isn’t a business that is able to deliver a competent service to customers as things have been cut so far.
Last edited by Dave_C; Dec 12, 2017 at 5:38 am
Dec 12, 2017, 3:09 am
#63
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: South East, UK
Programs: BA Gold / GfL, Hilton Diamond
Posts: 2,432
The other issue BA was touting was that crew were out of position due to the disruption. This, of course, was in some cases absolutely valid. However, it seems that BA's internal systems were as much messed up as its customer-facing systems. Speaking to the crew on my flight yesterday, when they reported for duty at LHR that morning, they were told that they weren't expected since BA's systems thought they were still stuck in Dublin! They said that even after they had confirmed they were there and had been reallocated to the flight, the systems dropped them from operating my flight again!
In my view this is a bigger screw-up than the IT fiasco earlier this year. If BA had been prepared, had contingency plans in place, had decent stress-tested IT systems, the impact of a tiny amount of snow and cold weather should have been a fraction of what it was.
In my view this is a bigger screw-up than the IT fiasco earlier this year. If BA had been prepared, had contingency plans in place, had decent stress-tested IT systems, the impact of a tiny amount of snow and cold weather should have been a fraction of what it was.
Dec 12, 2017, 3:22 am
#64
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Switzerland
Programs: AY+ Platinum, SK Gold, BAEC Silver, airbaltic VIP, Radisson VIP
Posts: 6,529
This! Last weekend's reports were reminiscent of last year's fog disruption (17th-18th December, 30th December). As you say, nothing seems to have improved since.
Dec 12, 2017, 3:22 am
#65
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
So you're happy to activate a contingency plan on a "just in case" basis and thereby cause substantial disruption to your customers, even though the forecasters say that the adverse winter weather isn't going to happen?
Or is that not the effect of your contingency plans?
It will no doubt have escaped some people's notice that the forecast for this morning (Tuesday) was also wrong.
Or is that not the effect of your contingency plans?
It will no doubt have escaped some people's notice that the forecast for this morning (Tuesday) was also wrong.
Freezing weather isn't exactly unusual in the middle of December, so there should surely be de-icing plans in place to cover a schedule which is known months in advance. In which case lengthy waits for de-icing equipment could have been avoided. I think I read one post somewhere above that there were over 40 aircraft in the de-icing queue, that to me suggests poor preparation.
As a result of failure to get planes away close to schedule the whole thing just seized up, with the knock on effect of people waiting 4 hours to get off a landed aircraft and ground vehicles not being able to move around because of aircraft blocking the way.
Dec 12, 2017, 3:33 am
#66
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: LON
Posts: 387
Maybe whoever is responsible at BA and HAL should try a flight out of MUC on a wintry day: Plane rolls up to just off the runway, two de-icer trucks left and right await all planes at that point, and then off down the runway you go straight after de-icing.
Not that there are never any weather delays there, but they are prepared for it.
Not that there are never any weather delays there, but they are prepared for it.
Dec 12, 2017, 3:58 am
#67
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Manchester but from Yorkshire better known as Gods country
Programs: BA Gold, , Sandals plat
Posts: 839
The real problem here is not the the weather or BA, but years of inept government that have dillied and dallied over the blaring obvious need for expansion at Heathrow. Whatever the reason, this airport runs at full capacity and when the wheel comes off it will always go pear shaped. This will always put BA at a disadvantage. What do people expect on major breakdowns like this. Do people think BA have boxes of additional staff that can be brought out to help, that thousands of hotels rooms can be magicked up. The bagged and immigration system is designed for normal operations and will never be able to cope under these special conditions. It’s unfortunate for those affected but the reality is this countries transport infrastructure has been sadly neglected for the last 30 years. I’m sure that over the last few days BA could have handled somethings better but on balance I agree with Tobias that in circumstances like this they are dammed either way. Heathrow needs two more runways and increased terminal capacity yesterday, not ten years from now.
Dec 12, 2017, 4:19 am
#68
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 935
The real problem here is not the the weather or BA, but years of inept government that have dillied and dallied over the blaring obvious need for expansion at Heathrow. Whatever the reason, this airport runs at full capacity and when the wheel comes off it will always go pear shaped. This will always put BA at a disadvantage. What do people expect on major breakdowns like this. Do people think BA have boxes of additional staff that can be brought out to help, that thousands of hotels rooms can be magicked up. The bagged and immigration system is designed for normal operations and will never be able to cope under these special conditions. It’s unfortunate for those affected but the reality is this countries transport infrastructure has been sadly neglected for the last 30 years. I’m sure that over the last few days BA could have handled somethings better but on balance I agree with Tobias that in circumstances like this they are dammed either way. Heathrow needs two more runways and increased terminal capacity yesterday, not ten years from now.
Dec 12, 2017, 4:40 am
#69
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: London, UK
Posts: 5,655
The real problem here is not the the weather or BA, but years of inept government that have dillied and dallied over the blaring obvious need for expansion at Heathrow. Whatever the reason, this airport runs at full capacity and when the wheel comes off it will always go pear shaped. This will always put BA at a disadvantage. What do people expect on major breakdowns like this. Do people think BA have boxes of additional staff that can be brought out to help, that thousands of hotels rooms can be magicked up. The bagged and immigration system is designed for normal operations and will never be able to cope under these special conditions. It’s unfortunate for those affected but the reality is this countries transport infrastructure has been sadly neglected for the last 30 years. I’m sure that over the last few days BA could have handled somethings better but on balance I agree with Tobias that in circumstances like this they are dammed either way. Heathrow needs two more runways and increased terminal capacity yesterday, not ten years from now.
Dec 12, 2017, 4:45 am
#70
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 851
So you're happy to activate a contingency plan on a "just in case" basis and thereby cause substantial disruption to your customers, even though the forecasters say that the adverse winter weather isn't going to happen?
Or is that not the effect of your contingency plans?
It will no doubt have escaped some people's notice that the forecast for this morning (Tuesday) was also wrong.
Or is that not the effect of your contingency plans?
It will no doubt have escaped some people's notice that the forecast for this morning (Tuesday) was also wrong.
Argue this...what's the outcome if BA doesn't de-ice aircraft, just snow and go.... Otherwise, it has to be built into their SOP for weather based on safety alone.
Dec 12, 2017, 5:12 am
#71
Join Date: Sep 2015
Programs: LH SEN; BA Gold
Posts: 8,405
A relative of mine was in the same boat. BA kept delaying her flight. Her flight got ultimately cancelled when the planned aircraft in the hold over SEN diverted to another airport. She's currently playing with the idea to claim the compensation from BA when she emails them about payment of her expenses (accommodation+food+transportation; roughly 250£ for 48hrs delay) and see what they come up with as excuse. Her flight was to be operated by an aircraft that had circled one over London before diverting. I doubt that they can play the "weather" card since the weather at the time was relatively good (no snow/rain and relatively good visibility) and the aircraft could've been turned around in time for her flight. That said, I expect them to come up with another "beyond our control" excuse (such as ATC) but she (and I) are definitely interested to hear it. She told me that she's probably going to leave it at that if a) she gets her expenses under the duty of care back and b) the given reason is plausible enough (which it probably will).
Dec 12, 2017, 5:20 am
#72
Original Poster
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: LHR/ATH
Programs: Amex Platinum, LH SEN (Gold), BA Bronze
Posts: 4,489
I hope someone with a disrupted flight, especially the day after December 10 when there was no more snow, goes ahead with an EU 261 400-600 EUR compensation claim and if BA do not play ball take it to court. I want to see what comes out of it. Come on guys, take one for the team!
Dec 12, 2017, 5:45 am
#73
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Krakow
Programs: BAEC Silver, Miles and More(FTL), IHG(Platinum), Accor, HHonors(Diamond), SPG, Hertz Five Star
Posts: 5,901
Maybe whoever is responsible at BA and HAL should try a flight out of MUC on a wintry day: Plane rolls up to just off the runway, two de-icer trucks left and right await all planes at that point, and then off down the runway you go straight after de-icing.
Not that there are never any weather delays there, but they are prepared for it.
Not that there are never any weather delays there, but they are prepared for it.
I did it at WAW a week ago, taxied out to the pad by the end of the runway, two sets of deicing trucks so two planes could be done at the same time then off to the runway and take off. Its like a car wash you Q up for instead of this nonsense of sitting at the gate waiting for the truck to come to you
Dec 12, 2017, 5:51 am
#74
FlyerTalk Evangelist
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: London
Programs: Mucci. Nothing else matters.
Posts: 38,644
What is unreasonable is to suggest that merely because it's winter, LHR should activate all of its snow plans on every day of the season, regardless of the risk of there being snow on any particular day.
Dec 12, 2017, 6:11 am
#75
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
The real problem here is not the the weather or BA, but years of inept government that have dillied and dallied over the blaring obvious need for expansion at Heathrow. Whatever the reason, this airport runs at full capacity and when the wheel comes off it will always go pear shaped. This will always put BA at a disadvantage. What do people expect on major breakdowns like this. Do people think BA have boxes of additional staff that can be brought out to help, that thousands of hotels rooms can be magicked up. The bagged and immigration system is designed for normal operations and will never be able to cope under these special conditions. It’s unfortunate for those affected but the reality is this countries transport infrastructure has been sadly neglected for the last 30 years. I’m sure that over the last few days BA could have handled somethings better but on balance I agree with Tobias that in circumstances like this they are dammed either way. Heathrow needs two more runways and increased terminal capacity yesterday, not ten years from now.
That is nothing to do with the government or HAL, airlines are responsible for their own de-icing.