mec72

You're right (as always!).

I've gone back to Wallentin-Herman v Alitalia which actually discusses that same recital 14 of the preamble (not sure to what extent that case is binding or relevant though as it's now a few years old).

The court said - admittedly in the context of a technical defect, but I don't see a reason why the same logic should not be applied to the "snow in December / de-icing" query:

"[...] circumstances surrounding such an event can be characterised as ‘extraordinary’ within the meaning of Article 5(3) of Regulation No 261/2004 only if they relate to an event which, like those listed in recital 14 in the preamble to that regulation, is not inherent in the normal exercise of the activity of the air carrier concerned and is beyond the actual control of that carrier on account of its nature or origin."

And then goes on:

"It is apparent from this that the frequency of the technical problems experienced by an air carrier is not in itself a factor from which the presence or absence of ‘extraordinary circumstances’ within the meaning of Article 5(3) of Regulation No 261/2004 can be concluded."

Now, applying the above to our question: (1) is a few days of snow and sub-zero temperatures each winter inherent in operations of an airline based in the UK? Yes, clearly. (2) Is snow in London relatively rare - yes, it's infrequent - but that's irrelevant, as per the above.

Obviously, this is a bit simplistic as I'm sure some here will be quick to point out, but I find it annoying that an airline can get away with anything by just saying it's "weather" when very often it's not, and I'm sure many here share the same sentiment.

corporate-wage-slave

I'm not sure I quite understand what you are referring to. There is a set of 2 to 4 hour time bands relating to compensation for delays and cancellations. There is a 5 hour delay band which invokes the refund option known as 8.1.a. There is a general requirement for cancellations to be rebooked in 8.1.b, the clause that talks about "re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity". The "earliest opportunity" bit is not defined more sharply, and at that point my rather lengthy post above would (perhaps) apply.

binman

I agree with much that you say but would stress the need for excellent travel insurance whenever you travel and especially with BA. I have over the last 10 years had to make substantial claims for volcano delays, snow, BA IT, BA lost bags and simply BA delays. This forum has helped with that.

I would take issue however with the statement that a £40 cheapo ticket and the alternative is LH business not playing out well. Again it is about reasonableness. If you book months in advance for an important trip or family event and the flight is cancelled on the day. Then the only alternative might be LH business and in that event it would not be unreasonable. There is rightly no limit on the costs of rerouting or hotels and that is simply a risk that BA takes when it fails to plan sufficiently for an inch of snow.

Clearly if seats are available in the same cabin that should be the first choice, but I would not hesitate to buy other seats if that was all that was available, particularly if, as is now the norm with BA operational meltdowns, there was no way of getting rebooked or re routed by BA at the airport or on the phone.

I am pleased that BA now issue CAA flyers as in my experience they do everything possible to frustrate claims and I have never been advised of my right other than via the pages of this forum.

snaxmuppet

Sorry... you said...
I know you said that you might be possibly mistaken but that was my question... if it is acceptable to just get you there same day then that would mean that the 4+hrs delay/cancellation timeframe would no longer apply... or have I misunderstood you?

corporate-wage-slave

Personally I think it's unrelated for two reasons. Firstly because technical defects come via a separate point, recital 15 - extraordinary circumstances - not recital 14 - meterological conditions. Secondly the whole technical debate through to Huzar has all been about what responsibilities have for internally controlled aspects, namely their own aircraft. The law basically has come down on saying that anything under BA's control is BA's fault. If Boeing does a recall or unrelated aircraft prangs a BA jet it probably isn't BA's fault. This de-icing debate hinges on several aspects, including internal controls (e.g. how BA handled a mass of iced-up aircraft), but also including here the role of ATC, the separate role of HAL and also the weather itself. Having said that, I'm not a lawyer, but if I was I would be sure to include Wallentin into my submission!

corporate-wage-slave

We may be at cross purposes here. What exactly is the 4 hour delay / cancellation timeframe at stake here?

subject2load

snaxmuppet

As I understand it... EC261 compensation applies if long-haul flights (over 3,500km) are delayed by non-extraordinary circumstances by more than 4hrs.

Forgive me if I am talking about a different thing but you seem to be suggesting that they may be moving towards compensation not being due if they get you to your destination same day... regardless of the number of hours it is delayed.

Have I got that wrong?

corporate-wage-slave

Yes, this section of the discussion is not about compensation (Article 7) but rebooking (Article 8) and follows from flatlander's comments here, which were included in my first post on the subject.

binman

The problem at Heathrow is that all airlines are responsible for the de-icing or their own aircraft and that the process is conducted on stand.

Several things must change for there to be an improvement in operational control and unless there is change then the claim of extraordinary circumstance cannot stand.

Firstly the airport authority need to take ownership of de-icing.

Secondly the procedure needs to be done off stand and in a central position, almost certainly near to the end of the end of the takeoff runway.

In any disruption freeing up a stands is critical to maintaining the flow, especially of arrival passengers who are the priority. This keeps aircraft and crew in the right place and limits disruption on subsequent days.
In very poor weather the hold time for deiced aircraft can be very short, particularly in freezing rain, and with taxi times which are often more than 30 minutes it can mean aircraft need to return to stand and be done again. Central deicing eliminates this.

15 Years ago this was being suggested but Heathrow airport still seem most reluctant and there does not seem to be much traction among airlines either.

The Airport must also have the absolute right to reduce capacity among all carriers in advance and based on the forecast. Again there is a lot of reluctance especially at BA with their dominance but any airport running at the capacity of Heathrow needs to have a dictatorial policy to ensure that overall disruption is limited and equally shared.

Deicing on stand at LHR simply leads to further delays and in any event carriers do not have the capacity to de ice their own schedules and so the schedule must meet the ability to de ice.

It does mean that additional parking space for aircraft is required, but this is already in place. BA have a Christmas parking plan and this should be initiated when bad weather is forecast and the airport operator reduces capacity.

Changes to the process and procedures would allow for advanced and planned reductions to the flying programme to ensure that the flow rate was achievable and give priority to arrivals thus limiting knock on impact. Departures would operate more effectively.

It would not eliminate disruption but like many I would prefer to be told today that my flight was cancelled tomorrow rather than 2 hours after STD because you can't deice and then spend another 2 hours getting off and back to find no one can assist.

Its all about planning and so the lack of it time and time again cannot be classed as extraordinary.

corporate-wage-slave

BA did pay for alternative flights during the IT meltdown - and there are in fact a number of FTers here who indicated that they had (eventually) received refunds on this basis.

flatlander

There is no explicit requirement, but there is in EC261/2004 a point in the preamble:

12) The trouble and inconvenience to passengers caused by cancellation of flights should also be reduced. This should be achieved by inducing carriers to inform passengers of cancellations before the scheduled time of departure and in addition to offer them reasonable re-routing, so that the passengers can make other arrangements. Air carriers should compensate passengers if they fail to do this, except when the cancellation occurs in extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even if all reasonable measures had been taken.

and the actual regulation

Article 8
Right to reimbursement or re-routing
1. Where reference is made to this Article, passengers shall be offered the choice between:
...
(b) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity; or

Putting these two together, I consider there is a strong case for it being against the regulations that BA would not rebook a passenger onto another carrier who could be expected to get them to their destination within a reasonable time. Concrete examples exist where a passenger on a flight within Europe was not rebooked onto another carrier the next day, but instead made to wait 2 days. That is clearly not the earliest opportunity, far from it.

C-W-S's point that a later flight the same day to a European destination on BA would be reasonable is well made, and both his and the CAA's point that the operating carrier should have every opportunity to arrange the carriage is also well made. I'm not venturing off into a fantasy land of immediately purchasing a walk-up ticket on my alternative carrier of choice and sending BA the bill.

However, BA having the opportunity to rebook onto another carrier to save the passenger significant delay of a day or more - the passenger contacts BA and BA has a ticketing arrangement with the other carrier - and then BA refusing, seems entirely against both the spirit and the letter of EC261 regulations. BA does this persistently, both in the recent snow problems and their major IT meltdown in May. So they have a policy to do this, it is not simply that they had some problem with rebooking onto other carriers on this occasion, and that leads to being able to challenge their breach of the EC261 regulations (in my opinion).

strichener

I am 99.9% sure that I have moved off-stand to have de-icing carried out at Heathrow on a BA flight.

The Ginge

Someone posted on here earlier in the week showing Heathrow already have a couple of remote de icing areas which can be used. The issue as has been pointed out at Heathrow is space, they are in active taxiways, not remote like Toronto. If you search for the Toronto one it looks like they have 6 lanes, ok Toronto has more snow than London so you wouldn't need 6, but one at each end of each runway, that's still a lot of space.

And with snow at Heathrow, from the below link, damned if you do damned if you don't. 'Bosses slammed for cancelling flights before snow'

London Heathrow Airport bosses slammed for axeing 80 flights before whiteout arrives | Daily Mail Online

flatlander

If you wanted to avoid delaying flights, you would need more than 6, even. At prime time LHR has about one takeoff each minute. If aircraft all need de-icing and move off from the gate to a de-icing area and then takeoff the de-icing area has to be able to release de-iced aircraft at a rate of one per minute. De-icing an aircraft in 6 minutes is good going, especially for a large one, and you have to account for time to move in and out of the de-icing area. I would guess you would need 10 de-icing bays at least for this idea, at least half of which would have to be able to accommodate wide-bodies.

That's not a small amount of space, Heathrow doesn't have that to spare without something giving. Do you want to get rid of a dozen remote stands? The BA cargo terminal? The Virgin maintenance base? All the car parks inside the perimeter road?