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New member. Downgrade, fight with BA - what should I do?

New member. Downgrade, fight with BA - what should I do?

Old Oct 15, 17, 8:43 pm
  #31  
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Bold added:
Originally Posted by MSPeconomist View Post
OP claimed for 75% of HALF of the ticket price, not 75% of the RT price.
Bold added
Originally Posted by Often1 View Post
Not according to the OP. He said that he claimed 75% of half the price of the ticket. That would have been GBP 974.46 (2598.57 / 2 *.75). Lopping off taxes, bearing in mind that APD alone is GBP 146, the BA and CEDR calculation sounds roughly correct.

OP is also entitled to a refund of the excess APD of GBP 73. That is not under EC 261/2004, but is simply a matter of making the request of Expedia, to whom the tax was paid.

Bottom line is that the correct result is arithmetic and does not require any policy overlay. OP does need the breakdown and I presume that Expedia can provide that. With the breakdown, he can figure out whether BA was correct in the first instance and, if it was, move on as this is not a personal matter in the least.

"GUTT3D I paid Expedia 2,598.57 (including taxes and credit card surcharge). I contacted BA in first instance, who said to contact Expedia, who suggested BA or Iberia etc. - after many weeks of going round the houses I ended up having to take BA to CEDR. I claimed for 75% of half the overall price I paid to Expedia
I don't see how what I said in the post you quoted is any different from what you said after the words "Not according to the OP."
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Old Oct 15, 17, 8:58 pm
  #32  
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Originally Posted by gutt3d View Post
I'll get in touch with Expedia and see if they can give me more of a breakdown, but it's beginning to sound like there's a good chance that the fare BA quoted (and thus the CEDR figure) is correct.
[snip]
The excess APD thing may be worth looking into, too - thanks to all for flagging that. Is this different from the 75 "ex gratis" payment that BA gave me - the thing I'd imagined to be a goodwill gesture? Or is that 75 in fact something they were legally obliged to give me anyway (i.e. is it likely this was a refund of the excess APD)?
Thanks for the replies, and particular thanks also to EsherFlyer and Globaliser for researching away into the potential background fares.

gutt3d, from the additional information you provided and the other information now in this thread, I think it is looking like you have not had the correct refund. The 75, however, is not usually ex gratia, this is what you get if you don't bother to claim EC261, but normally they subtract that 75 from the claim, so essentially you are on 540 approx. Incidentally usually any at-gate payment is close to the lowest possible EC261 payment, and AUPs are sometimes available in the 200 region (bearing in mind APD).

What you now need is something similar to EsherFlyer's post above, with a breakdown of each element and each tax. The final Fare Construction isn't that useful here, good if you can get it (since it shows the exchange rates being applied) but not essential.

It is certainly the case that BA say they can't see TA's fare constructions. And that sounds plausible given the multiple channels involved, but more likely it would take BA a stupid amount of time to forensically reverse engineer fares from a haystack of OTA fare channels. However CEDR were given BA's full calculation and nothing as useful from your side, plus you asked for the incorrect amount in the first instance. So I think it's becoming very clear why you lost out here.

So the first step is to get the Expedia information, ideally in email format, otherwise you will have to submit it based on your conversations with them as a Statement of Truth (hence the need for names, dates and times)

Then calculate the precise amount due based on the information in the main EC261 thread, so deducting the World Traveller levels of government taxes, but not deducting carrier fees such as the 229 mentioned upthread. There is one very arguable point (using the legal meaning) which relates to fare construction. If BA maintains that the base fare outwards was a lot cheaper than the base fare back, that is only valid as a calculation (in my opinion) if that base fare can be applied to a WT fare, and sometimes they are not, and crucially is shown to the ticket buyer in that format. In any case if this was WTP out, WTP back, the passenger can in my view rely on the total base fare divided by two. I am not a lawyer (but I think I know what I'm talking about here!).

Going to MCOL is entirely legitimate if CEDR made the wrong calculation. However (a) firstly you need to give BA the chance the fix the mistake, by formally asking it from them before MCOL submission (see main thread to see why) and (b) you need to be utterly precise and very careful in your MCOL submission.

For anyone else looking at this thread perhaps at an early point in the process, as pointed out in the main EC261 thread it is best to let BA initially do their "involuntary fare refund" calculation first, which is an internal BA process which sometimes comes up with a higher figure than EC261, then appealing if it is lower. Involuntary fare refunds are generally the best route for CE to ET refunds, and often the best route for CW to WTP downgrades. For WTP to WT (as here) it's a thoroughly bad calculation if it was a DIF WTP fare since the refund may be zero. The only trouble with this stage is it often takes weeks for BA to do this calculation, however in the meantime you can be ready with your own calculation to see whether this is the best outcome or not.
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Old Oct 16, 17, 12:56 am
  #33  
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Originally Posted by gutt3d View Post
I flew out on May 7th (Sunday) and was out for a few weeks. I flew home on Friday 26th May.
That changes things, and means that EsherFlyer may have been closer to the truth than I was.

I had made the assumption that because you'd paid a W class fare for the inbound half, you'd had to do that because it was a short trip. W class fares are and can be significantly more expensive than cheap business class fares.

Now that we have your travel dates, if we have your ticketing date we can look up the published fares on that date to see whether we can find a pair of published fares that matches what you paid.

For example, for purchase on 15 April 2017: TKW2S4C1 1,230 (which is the round-trip value) combined with W1N0Y4C5 2,986 would amount to 2,108 round-trip - and half of 1,230 is 615. That T class fare is the lowest non-DIF fare in the list for that ticketing date.

The points about YQ etc are good ones, though.

Last edited by Globaliser; Oct 16, 17 at 1:03 am
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Old Oct 16, 17, 1:31 am
  #34  
 
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Originally Posted by GinFizz View Post
The relevant text from the June 2016 ruling is:

" ... those taxes and charges nor their amount depends on the class for which that ticket has been purchased."
So the argument is that although YQ is same for booked / travelled in this case (WT and WT+) it is a different amount for J and F, hence it is dependent on ticketed class?
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Old Oct 16, 17, 12:36 pm
  #35  
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Thanks again to all concerned - this has been (and continues to be) a learning experience for me, and I'm most grateful for the wisdom and advice offered here.

I'll contact Expedia and see what I can find out regards ticket breakdown, and will then post in the 261 main thread (with reference back here).

Final info from me on this, in response to a question a little up thread - I booked my ticket on 16th Apr for travel on 7th May.

Thanks again to everyone. I will be back in 261 thread in next few days...
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Old Oct 16, 17, 3:35 pm
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Globaliser View Post
Now that we have your travel dates, if we have your ticketing date we can look up the published fares on that date to see whether we can find a pair of published fares that matches what you paid.

For example, for purchase on 15 April 2017: TKW2S4C1 1,230 (which is the round-trip value) combined with W1N0Y4C5 2,986 would amount to 2,108 round-trip - and half of 1,230 is 615. That T class fare is the lowest non-DIF fare in the list for that ticketing date.
Originally Posted by gutt3d View Post
Final info from me on this, in response to a question a little up thread - I booked my ticket on 16th Apr for travel on 7th May.
In which case the numbers are the same, and that is one way of getting to a base fare of 2,108 (with an outbound base fare component of 615).
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