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New member. Downgrade, fight with BA - what should I do?

New member. Downgrade, fight with BA - what should I do?

Old Oct 15, 2017, 1:19 pm
  #16  
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
I think the price is supposed to be a RT ticket in WT+ in each direction, using the nonstops.
Indeed, the exchange was in the context of the earlier discussion about what he paid for in the outbound direction - there's no doubt that he paid for and flew WT+ inbound. The question was whether the TFC figure was correct for WT+ outbound and WT+ inbound, or whether it was correct for WT outbound and WT+ inbound.

It is the former combination (WT+ outbound) that more closely matches - so it makes an accidental sale/purchase of a WT/WT+ ticket less likely.
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Old Oct 15, 2017, 1:32 pm
  #17  
 
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Originally Posted by gutt3d
Here's the info I've got on the return journey from my BAEC page (inbound only - outbound is no longer listed):
'26-May-17 29-May-17 PHOENIX - LONDON HEATHROW (W/W)
BA288(Booking ref: ) 90 5,256
Cabin Bonus 0 2,628
'

Expedia receipt (and currently the only breakdown I have) is:
'Traveller 1: Adult 2,578.57
Flight 2,108.00
Taxes & Airline Fees 470.57
Airline Card Fee 20.00
'
If you booked WT+ out and back, and the return was in W fare (highest in the cabin) then you can get an equivalent current fare with matrix.itasoftware.com, telling it to use route code "BA" and advanced code "f bc=e | bc=t" (out) / "f bc=w" (in),

That gives (trimmed a bit):

Fare 1: Carrier BA TJW7C1S4 LON to PHX (rules)
Passenger type ADT, round trip fare, booking code T
Covers LHR-PHX (Premium economy)
625.00
Fare 2: Carrier BA W1N0C0S0 PHX to LON (rules)
Passenger type ADT, round trip fare, booking code W
Covers PHX-LHR (Premium economy)
1,518.00


United Kingdom Passenger Service Charge Departures (UB) 41.47
USDA APHIS Fee (XA) 3.00
US Immigration Fee (XY) 5.30
US Customs Fee (YC) 4.20
BA YQ surcharge (YQ) 229.00
United Kingdom Air Passenger Duty APD (GB) 150.00
US International Arrival Tax (US) 13.60
US International Departure Tax (US) 13.60
US September 11th Security Fee (AY) 4.20
US Passenger Facility Charge (XF) 3.40

Subtotal per passenger 2,610.77

Fare Construction (can be useful to travel agents)
LON BA PHX M 815.84TJW7C1S4 BA LON M 1981.52W1N0C0S0 NUC 2797.36 END ROE 0.766078 XT 150.00GB 41.47UB 4.20YC 5.30XY 3.00XA 27.20US 4.20AY 229.00YQ 3.40XF PHX4.50


Overall, pretty close to your fare, and suggesting that your outbound was in T @ ~ 625 - so the 615 BA have told you could well be correct.

If you can easily get the original fares from Expedia you may find they were entirely different and make pursuing more from BA rewarding, but the above makes it look like any hard slog to get them may not be worthwhile.

I think you should try and get past feeling wounded - it was nothing personal so don't let it become so . Remember that the fare wasn't 50:50 out and back, so even if you had booked WT (where you eventually flew) out that seat would probably have cost more than what you've eventually paid after refunds against the 615, APD, etc.
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Old Oct 15, 2017, 1:37 pm
  #18  
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Originally Posted by EsherFlyer
Fare 1: Carrier BA TJW7C1S4 LON to PHX (rules)
Passenger type ADT, round trip fare, booking code T
Covers LHR-PHX (Premium economy)

...

Overall, pretty close to your fare, and suggesting that your outbound was in T @ ~ 625 - so the 615 BA have told you could well be correct.

If you can easily get the original fares from Expedia you may find they were entirely different and make pursuing more from BA rewarding, but the above makes it look like any hard slog to get them may not be worthwhile.
That's an interesting result - how did you manage to get a T class fare to price when there was no Saturday night stay?

Of course, that doesn't rule out a T class fare outbound, if Expedia have a negotiated rate that doesn't require a Saturday night stay.
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Old Oct 15, 2017, 1:41 pm
  #19  
 
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Originally Posted by Globaliser
That's an interesting result - how did you manage to get a T class fare to price when there was no Saturday night stay?

Of course, that doesn't rule out a T class fare outbound, if Expedia have a negotiated rate that doesn't require a Saturday night stay.
Why do you think there wasn't ?

I picked from next Sun for a week, unticking the "Only show available fares" box.

Last edited by EsherFlyer; Oct 15, 2017 at 1:52 pm Reason: Correct travel dates used.
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Old Oct 15, 2017, 1:51 pm
  #20  
 
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Originally Posted by EsherFlyer
Remember that the fare wasn't 50:50 out and back, so even if you had booked WT (where you eventually flew) out that seat would probably have cost more than what you've eventually paid after refunds against the 615, APD, etc.
For example, a WT V fare (quite a low one, and what you might get booking a few weeks ahead) looks to be 355. You paid 25% of 615 - about 155 - so are around 200 better off. You'll need to get the extra APD back of course to get to that position, but it sounds like you may have already.

Hopefully that makes you feel a bit better .
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Old Oct 15, 2017, 1:53 pm
  #21  
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Originally Posted by EsherFlyer
Why do you think there wasn't ?
Sorry, I was working from the OP's dates: outbound Sunday, inbound Friday ("I flew out on a Sunday afternoon, and flew back on a Friday night") - and the BAEC statement entry he provided fixes the dates as 21 May 2017 and 26 May 2017.
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Old Oct 15, 2017, 2:01 pm
  #22  
 
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Originally Posted by Globaliser
Sorry, I was working from the OP's dates: outbound Sunday, inbound Friday ("I flew out on a Sunday afternoon, and flew back on a Friday night") - and the BAEC statement entry he provided fixes the dates as 21 May 2017 and 26 May 2017.
Ah yes, that would change things . As you say above, perhaps an Expedia special fare?
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Old Oct 15, 2017, 2:53 pm
  #23  
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Originally Posted by Globaliser
Sorry, I was working from the OP's dates: outbound Sunday, inbound Friday ("I flew out on a Sunday afternoon, and flew back on a Friday night") - and the BAEC statement entry he provided fixes the dates as 21 May 2017 and 26 May 2017.
From the BAEC statement: 26th May is the transaction date and 29th May is the posted date.

I flew out on May 7th (Sunday) and was out for a few weeks. I flew home on Friday 26th May.
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Old Oct 15, 2017, 3:04 pm
  #24  
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Originally Posted by MSPeconomist
OP claimed for 75% of HALF of the ticket price, not 75% of the RT price.
Not according to the OP. He said that he claimed 75% of half the price of the ticket. That would have been GBP 974.46 (2598.57 / 2 *.75). Lopping off taxes, bearing in mind that APD alone is GBP 146, the BA and CEDR calculation sounds roughly correct.

OP is also entitled to a refund of the excess APD of GBP 73. That is not under EC 261/2004, but is simply a matter of making the request of Expedia, to whom the tax was paid.

Bottom line is that the correct result is arithmetic and does not require any policy overlay. OP does need the breakdown and I presume that Expedia can provide that. With the breakdown, he can figure out whether BA was correct in the first instance and, if it was, move on as this is not a personal matter in the least.

"GUTT3D I paid Expedia 2,598.57 (including taxes and credit card surcharge). I contacted BA in first instance, who said to contact Expedia, who suggested BA or Iberia etc. - after many weeks of going round the houses I ended up having to take BA to CEDR. I claimed for 75% of half the overall price I paid to Expedia
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Old Oct 15, 2017, 3:21 pm
  #25  
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Originally Posted by Globaliser

One thing to try to get the listing of the outbound flight in your BAEC account is to go to this page - (linked page) - and either search for 20 transactions of flights only, or specify a date range that covers the date of your outbound travel.
The info I posted was taken from my Avios statement page (the one you linked to). The outbound isn't there anymore - and while I thought I had evidence of the outbound, I checked again and all I have is a screenshot of the inbound (I took a screengrab of the inbound once I realised that the outbound had gone - I wasn't sure if the inbound one might disappear too). So in fact I was mistaken: I no longer have any reference to the outbound, other than my boarding pass and the receipt from Expedia.

I'll get in touch with Expedia and see if they can give me more of a breakdown, but it's beginning to sound like there's a good chance that the fare BA quoted (and thus the CEDR figure) is correct.

It's very true that I feel wounded by this I know it's not personal - but I wouldn't be surprised if this is "normal" (as in: is it fairly standard that an airline gives passenger the runaround perhaps hoping that passenger will eventually give up). And it's that bit - it's my suspicion that this happens a lot - that makes me want to *not* give up... But if I've come to the end of the road and got the right result, then I can stop (and it won't be giving up, as such )

The excess APD thing may be worth looking into, too - thanks to all for flagging that. Is this different from the 75 "ex gratis" payment that BA gave me - the thing I'd imagined to be a goodwill gesture? Or is that 75 in fact something they were legally obliged to give me anyway (i.e. is it likely this was a refund of the excess APD)?
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Old Oct 15, 2017, 3:25 pm
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Often1
Not according to the OP. He said that he claimed 75% of half the price of the ticket. That would have been GBP 974.46 (2598.57 / 2 *.75).
Yes, this was the amount I raised a claim for. In their decision, the CEDR adjudicator pointed out that taxes should be excluded.
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Old Oct 15, 2017, 3:39 pm
  #27  
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Originally Posted by gutt3d
Yes, this was the amount I raised a claim for. In their decision, the CEDR adjudicator pointed out that taxes should be excluded.
That would seem to be correct

The taxes for LHR-PHX-LHR in WT+ are 238.77 approx
There is a carrier surcharge ( which is not a tax ) of 229
There is an overpayment of tax of 75 giving taxes of 163.77

From a total of 2,598.57 that would leave 2435 of fare paid
If it was a simple r/t where both directions are equally priced, a base of 1217 would seem to be the claim point where 75% would be approx 912 due plus 75 tax for 987 reimbursement

I have trouble seeing where BA can have come up with GBP615 as the fare, as that would have made the inbound fare 1820 . Were both directions in the same booking class?

I would suggest taking it to MCOL and not accept the CEDR ruling
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Old Oct 15, 2017, 4:21 pm
  #28  
 
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Originally Posted by Dave Noble
There is a carrier surcharge ( which is not a tax ) of 229
I've lost track of whether YQ gets the 75% payout as well. If so, I suspect OP hasn't had that yet, so another ~172 due ?
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Old Oct 15, 2017, 6:17 pm
  #29  
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Expedia will have all of the answers here. We don't even know if this was perhaps a bulk / consolidator / promo of some kind which Expedia purchased and which breaks down differently by day.

Until that point, everything is pure speculation and it is entirely possible that the BA calculation is roughly correct.

Don't forget the APD refund which has nothing to do with EC 261/2004 and is simply a refund of the excess tax.
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Old Oct 15, 2017, 7:27 pm
  #30  
 
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Originally Posted by EsherFlyer
I've lost track of whether YQ gets the 75% payout as well. If so, I suspect OP hasn't had that yet, so another ~172 due ?
The relevant text from the June 2016 ruling is:

" ...the price of the ticket to be taken into consideration for the purposes of determining the reimbursement owed to that passenger, where he is downgraded on a flight, is solely the price of the flight itself, to the exclusion of taxes and charges indicated on that ticket, as long as neither the requirement to pay those taxes and charges nor their amount depends on the class for which that ticket has been purchased."

(where "price of the flight" is clarified in the ruling to refer to the quotient resulting from the distance of the flight for which a claim is made and the total distance over which the passenger is entitled to travel on the ticket).

More details here in a post by CWS

Based on this, many on here (including me for what it's worth - which admittedly is not a lot) would argue that YQ should be included as it is a charge set by the airline (rather than imposed as a tax) and typically depends on the cabin.

If the OP can verify that the amount offered so far is only (fare*0.75), then I would certainly recommend MCOL - in the expectation that as the claim rests solely on the question of whether the YQ should be included, and as the differential amount to the CEDR judgement is not significant (for BA at least), the airline will pay-up rather than risk having a court ruling on this topic.

To re-iterate some of the posts above though, the MCOL route is only worth following if a detailed breakdown of the fare can be obtained on which to base the claimed amounts.
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