williamn78

Thanks for the report! Could you translate the above bit though?!

Jagboi

AC: Air Canada
INTL: international. There are domestic and international lounges in YYZ
MLL: Maple Leaf Lounge. Air Canada's name for their lounges. Think Galleries in BA speak.

escape4

I do not expect the PP lounge in YYZ to be better than AC's lounge in LHR. When the new AC international lounge is completed in YYZ, there are good chances it will be better than BA's lounge in LHR given how AC is trying to upgrade the premium experience in various ways, and since BA's LHR lounge is filled with short haul travellers while AC's lounge won't. Anyway, time will tell. But the lounge situation is just one more thing on a long and growing list of differences AC vs BA.

On the aircraft, I can have any seat in J with aisle access with AC, or the dorm with BA. With BA I have IFE problems more often than with AC. On BA I have been told before that they do not have my first choice meal because "the entire J cabin is filled with Golds" (right!!) On AC I always get my first choice meal. More often than not, I have better service on board with AC than BA.

On the ground I have AC's concierge to help me with various issues if they come up, and with BA I have nothing. In LHR I can have a smooth connection in T2 with AC or I can walk into a hot mess in T5 with BA. In YYZ T1, I can have priority security screening in the newer terminal with AC, or I can line up at security with everybody else in the older and subpar T3 with BA.

I am sure there are folks who will disagree with some of my points above, but based on my personal experience how much cheaper does BA have to be in J for me to fly BA instead of AC? The two products are becoming so disconnected that I do not even compare prices anymore. I would dare to say that AC J is now closer to BA F than BA J. That is quite a reversal because I used to fly BA exclusively more than a decade ago.

No need to complain about what BA is doing. If they think it helps BA shareholder value, then who am I to tell them otherwise? BA is free to make the changes it wants, and I am free to fly with who I want and be happy with my choices.

bbar2000

Chap at the entrance to the Plaza lounge last night was adamant that the BA lounge was only shut for renovations and would reopen. I accept that the feedback from the BA lounge staff would be more accurate I am sure, but I did notice that BA have taken over a good 50% of the Plaza lounge. And indeed heard some Delta crew excluded from the roped off BA sections moaning about it . (Think they were Delta at any rate). I’d be surprised if Plaza management felt this was a good long term option. PS : (two_roads) Power outlets are in the lamps :-)

bbar2000

Sry this is old info, pls ref a post by ( christianBA ) a bit earlier I missed,

christianBA

Plaza Premium will be removing the old BA kitchen and installing a central kitchen in what I assume they have in their lounge already. This is to create more seating in the previous BA lounge hence the delay of opening until sometime in January, and then First/Club sections should resume. Was also told from our account manager the food provisions would be returning to both first and club. Was given a list of what on offer now but unfortunately can’t find the info.

themax

Not that it matters anymore, but I was told by a reliable source at GTAA (Greater Toronto Airport Authority) that this was purely an issue of BA cheaping out. The lease for the BA Toronto lounge complex area was up for renewal and BA took a last minute decision not to renew the lease due to the increased cost (I wasn't told how much), and instead opted to use the 3rd party services already on offer. The lease was immediately snapped up by Plaza Premium who are in expansion mode in North America (who couldn't believe their luck that BA were being so frugal!).

The cost aside, it's difficult to understand how the same airline can spend $$$ millions in Boston building/refurbishing an amazing new lounge complex which serves 3 long haul BA flights per day and at the same time close their long standing Toronto facility which by March will also be serve 3 long haul BA flights per day. Although my GTAA source wouldn't give me any lease/cost figures, the fact that Plaza Premium snapped it up so fast does suggest that the new lease cost was within the bounds of reasonableness.

As I wrote in previous posts in this thread, I am going to vote with my feet and try AC. I will report back next week.

simons1

If you don't know what the increased cost was, how can you possibly know it was 'cheaping out'? What would you say is an acceptable increase for BA to pay - 10%, 20%, 100%?

For a specialist lounge operator like Plaza Premium the financial dynamics are totally different, they can generate an income stream when the lounge is not being used by BA passengers. So what PP and BA may be willing to pay may be totally different.

Without the full facts it sounds like a half baked analysis tbh.

corporate-wage-slave

This has all the hallmarks of being accurate. I don't think that BA would have willingly let go of this lounge, but equally may have been equally unwilling to pay more than the current rate (not sure if CAD/Euro movements also had an extra impact, I guess it depends when the previous lease started). I know in the past BA have left deals on the table, in the hope that airports would review their charges, but that won't work if PP are also in the market, and can presumably get 18 hours use a day out of it. And it may be that consequently it is saving BA a heap of money.

I can only echo sxc's comments about BA not presenting this very well - their own North America management staff were unaware of the change and BA have lost at least one client in the banking sector, though probably for multiple reasons but the lounge issue was mentioned. Had this been portrayed as outsourcing the lounge + refurbishment after a temporary closure it wouldn't have been great for the staff concerned, but commercial customers, who are very important on this route, would probably have been OK with the outcome.

In the case of BOS, I think that outcome had a lot to do with BOS' management's desire to butter up their BA relationship, I suspect YYZ isn't so bothered. I mentioned in the main BOS thread how the EK airport manager said he felt like he was at the wrong end of the food chain at that airport.

bisonrav

Yes, looks like a botched negotiation to me. Hence the lack of coherent messaging, BA were probably trying to play hardball in the lease discussions expecting to retain existing charges and got caught out because there was another offer available.

drwilliams

So what is the new lease rate that BA was offered?
Or the old lease rate?
Or the rate PP was offered?
Or the length of the deal?
Or who pays for fit-ups?

I really liked the BA First lounge in Toronto, and am disappointed about the changes. But if people think BA was just being cheap, how cheap were they?

Sort of like how much did it cost to operate last year, and what would have been the increased cost next year if they had agreed to GTAA's new lease.

Maybe this source who was in the negotiating room has all the details so we can armchair quarterback the deal!

TravellerFrequently

Rather later than expected and promised, here are my comments regarding the lounge, I have quite a lot of photos that I will try to upload. Not excellent quality due to lighting, a desire not to take too many pictures of those using the lounge and my poor photography skills, but they will give a feel.

We walked past the sad closed front of the old BA lounge and turned left towards the Premium Plaza lounge. As it is beyond the BA lounge, I have never noticed it.

Welcomed at the desk and directed to the left hand side of the lounge, which was allocated for BA First passengers. I assume this included Gold card holders. A BA staff member (or dressed in BA uniform) was sitting nearby. He did not look very happy and when asked by the OH why the BA lounge had been closed replied "costs". That was it and while likely true, not perhaps the most professional response and his manner was poor.

We found the left hand side of the lounge, which is passed the general seating area and at the front of the lounge, looking over the gate area. The BA 777 was parked below. The larger Club World (Silver) section is to the right.

No real challenge to enter and there were clearly people sitting in the section who did not qualify, from having over heard their conversation. We were asked if we were travelling in First but not asked to show boarding passes. The staff were busy, so were not always there.

Toilets are in the lounge and not individual like in the old lounge. There was a shower, IIRC.

Now to the lounge.

To start with a positive. The two staff allocated to the First section were very pleasant and pro active. Very regular offers of drinks was great, and not a service provided in the old lounge or can sometimes not be the case in the LHR T5 CCR, according to reports...The two ladies also came around offer cheese and then chocolates. Again, very nice.^

The seating area is not particularly sophisticated and the lounge décor is drab, dated and dimly lit. As others have reported, it was quite loud thanks to the music, numbers of passengers and some particularly drunk people in the non BA general seating area. A definite come down from the previous First lounge and also for Club World lounge passengers.

The F drink selection was probably on par with the previous BA lounge and very significantly better than what is on offer in the general 'pay as you go' section and included JW Red label, Glenfiddich, Canadian Club, Jack Daniels, Drambuie, Captain Morgan and Bacardi. I forgot the gin and the vodka, but I think the latter was a little premium. Two choices of red and white wine, which included Chateau Timberlay Bordeaux Superieur, and local Peller Estates Baco Noir for the former and Macon Villages Chardonnay and crush Pinot Grigo for the latter. As mentioned above, Champagne was Nicolas Feuillate Brut Reserve, which was at least on par with the previous Moët & Chandon IMHO.

Similar drinks in the Club World section by a quick check but there was Chandon sparkling wine rather than champagne.

No restaurant service dining, although even here, the YYZ BA lounge had been reducing the experience, at least the ambience, by removing table clothes and a stemmed rose from each table over recent years. Food and service had remained good.

The main 'attraction' apart from a relatively limited salad buffet, was a chicken stew. Mostly thigh rather than breast and ok rather than great. Not up to the standards of previously. Not many tables to sit and eat the food either, unlike in the old BA F section.

There was a small closed Reserved section. It was not on offer but I wonder if any celebs travelling through post the Toronto International Film Festival will find themselves in this area.

Not surprisingly, however, we did survive the new, temporary arrangements!

By the time that the CSM got to me, he was well aware of the dis-satisfaction of many of F passenegrs and had doubtless heard comments from those in J. He initiated feedback on his IPad and sent it into Customer Relations.

This week, I received a call from Customer Relations and provided the above feedback, stressing the service positives. The lady I spoke to agreed that communication appeared to have been poor, especially as the current arrangements (although not great) will be replaced by better, and hopefully similar arrangements to the previous facilities in January 2018. I look forward to trying those in the Spring.

Photos to come, hopefully, but happy to try to answer any questions.

TravellerFrequently

View into Premium Plaza lounge. Pay as you go in the front, BA F to the left and BAA J to the right.


View into the F section. I have adjusted the photo as it was quite dark.


View of window seating area, limited snacks and BA092.


Snacks in BA F section and view back in F section.


Drinks in the BA F section.


The BA J section.


Chicken dish.


Salad buffet


Closed Reserved Area.


View into closed Reserved Area,


BA092 from the BA F section.

Globaliser

Such a comparison is surely mistaken on a number of different levels?

First, come northern summer 2018, BOS will be four times daily. In contrast, YYZ will still be only double-daily to LHR, with an additional flight to LGW three times a week.

But the number of flights alone doesn't tell the whole story. Not only would you have to factor in capacity, but also yield on the route. And it seems relevant that in northern summer 2018, BOS will all be four-class flights, but at YYZ the additional LGW flights (which seem likely to be lower-yield anyway) are only three-class.

That doesn't itself tell us anything about whether BA made a mistake here. But comparing YYZ to BOS rather tends to highlight why BA would be sensible to prioritise investing in BOS.

Crampedin13A

Judging by the prices charged in CW and F on the 2 routes I doubt it was the yields out of YYZ (which I know is an expensive airport for airlines to operate from) but more what c-w-s alluded to in post 204 . BA has had it good out of YYZ for a long time with the national avoidance of AC by Canadians and what 10 years ago was a hard product light years ahead of AC. Fast forward 10 years and eventually the penny pinching is going to bite them in the butt against a now superior hard product and flight frequency on AC out of YYZ. Kind of odd thinking by BA to ignore a cash cow route like YYZ or are they that afraid/concerned with their new LCC mentality of that WJ YYZ-LGW flight.