Broken Club World seat - compensation claim
Sep 11, 2017, 2:26 am
#16
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 509
I haven't tried mcol or cedr, however if you paid with a credit card I would highly recommend section 75 as you have written confirmation of the seat being broken, what the advertised service etc is
it has been highly effective for me in the past
it has been highly effective for me in the past
Sep 11, 2017, 2:32 am
#17
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
Is it not possible also to make your credit card provider a party to any MCOL action? I am sure the likes of AMEX would love that.
Sep 11, 2017, 2:33 am
#18
Community Director
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I can see the CEDR adjudicator may well have smiled at a submission asking for a full refund, if it was on the basis of distress and inconvenience then that was destined to fail, and asking for an unreasonable amount seems to me to be a badly advised, and an MCOL approach needs to have a more reasonable start point.
I think the OP still has a good case, I'd personally probably still take the risk of MCOL as well, but this really is now a time for some circumspect realism.
Sep 11, 2017, 3:05 am
#19
Join Date: May 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 5,380
Well, I'd say there's what the rules say and the more practical view that the claim might be seen as too frivolous or outrageous. That might just encourage the adjudicator to find a reason to reject it under rather spurious grounds, and indeed for BA to fight it harder.
As and when you go to MCOL I'd therefore think about changing what you're asking for - as that might well negate some of BA's case where they will surely present the CEDR finding. More learned people than me will be along shortly, I'm sure, but I'd suggest you need to put a sensible value on the contractual breach - for a (say) £1000 sector value, maybe £500 - and sue for that amount. No court in the UK is ever going to award you the full return fare - if you consider EC261 principles (which don't apply here, but as a benchmark), and argue that you had a Y experience (which still wouldn't be true - an upright J seat is still better than a WTP seat, let alone a WT one) even that would only award you 75% of the sector value less taxes.
As and when you go to MCOL I'd therefore think about changing what you're asking for - as that might well negate some of BA's case where they will surely present the CEDR finding. More learned people than me will be along shortly, I'm sure, but I'd suggest you need to put a sensible value on the contractual breach - for a (say) £1000 sector value, maybe £500 - and sue for that amount. No court in the UK is ever going to award you the full return fare - if you consider EC261 principles (which don't apply here, but as a benchmark), and argue that you had a Y experience (which still wouldn't be true - an upright J seat is still better than a WTP seat, let alone a WT one) even that would only award you 75% of the sector value less taxes.
To expect the differential from a Y seat is wholly unrealistic, and I wonder if emotion got in the way of a fairer claim.
Sep 11, 2017, 3:15 am
#20
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
This is the part of the original argument that I find flawed. A CW seat, even upright, is superior to a WT+ seat (let alone Y), and on top of this there is lounge access, cabin bonus for Avios earnings, superior food and drink etc.
To expect the differential from a Y seat is wholly unrealistic, and I wonder if emotion got in the way of a fairer claim.
To expect the differential from a Y seat is wholly unrealistic, and I wonder if emotion got in the way of a fairer claim.
Lounge access - unclear if OP already had it but on the Priority Pass scale probably worth £30 or so, Avios bonus only relevant if you collect them, superior food and drink not that relevant if you were intending to sleep.
So maybe knock off £100 for that lot in total and OP has a legitimate claim for most of the difference.
Sep 11, 2017, 3:20 am
#21
Join Date: May 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 5,380
Except that the OP made clear he/she was working the day before and the day after and the prime purpose of CW on an overnight flight was to sleep.
Lounge access - unclear if OP already had it but on the Priority Pass scale probably worth £30 or so, Avios bonus only relevant if you collect them, superior food and drink not that relevant if you were intending to sleep.
So maybe knock off £100 for that lot in total and OP has a legitimate claim for most of the difference.
Lounge access - unclear if OP already had it but on the Priority Pass scale probably worth £30 or so, Avios bonus only relevant if you collect them, superior food and drink not that relevant if you were intending to sleep.
So maybe knock off £100 for that lot in total and OP has a legitimate claim for most of the difference.
However, if you're saying that take the one way difference between a WT+ fare and a CW fare and deduct around £100 then that doesn't sound unreasonable to me.
Sep 11, 2017, 4:27 am
#22
Join Date: Sep 2013
Programs: BAEC Gold, EK Skywards (enhanced Blue !), Oman Air Sindbad Gold
Posts: 6,399
I do feel it's interesting to consider the significant mismatch between the prioritisation attached by BA to Club World seating in its advertising, as compared to its stance when the same specified benefits are not actually provided.
Below is an exact cut & paste of the very first words appearing in the dedicated Club World section within ba.com (there are also photos on the same webpage, illustrating the versatility of the seat, including full lie-flat position.
"Club World combines premium levels of comfort and service with the freedom and flexibility to make every journey unique and unforgettable. Whether you're travelling for business or pleasure, there's a Club World seat with your name on it.
a spacious seat, which converts into a fully flat bed
delicious food and drink options using fresh, local ingredients
access to private lounges and luxurious spa treatments
dedicated check-in desks and priority boarding
Effortless comfort and flexibility
Imagine your favourite armchair, your bed, your dining table and your office integrated into one. Your Club World seat will adapt to your personal needs, whether you plan on working, catching up on some sleep, or just unwinding with our world-class dining and entertainment:
your own space to stretch out in privacy
comfy chair that converts into a 183cm (6ft) fully flat bed
memory foam headrest and quilted blanket
.................................................. ....................
.................................................. ............."
Subsequent sections go on to talk about onboard catering, IFE, lounge access and fast track facility. BUT it's undoubtedly the benefits of the CW seat - in its various flexible modes - that BA are keen to highlight when selling their tickets. Less so when responding to, and defending, claims that such benefits were not available to a customer who bought a ticket with such benefits specifically in mind.
Below is an exact cut & paste of the very first words appearing in the dedicated Club World section within ba.com (there are also photos on the same webpage, illustrating the versatility of the seat, including full lie-flat position.
"Club World combines premium levels of comfort and service with the freedom and flexibility to make every journey unique and unforgettable. Whether you're travelling for business or pleasure, there's a Club World seat with your name on it.
a spacious seat, which converts into a fully flat bed
delicious food and drink options using fresh, local ingredients
access to private lounges and luxurious spa treatments
dedicated check-in desks and priority boarding
Effortless comfort and flexibility
Imagine your favourite armchair, your bed, your dining table and your office integrated into one. Your Club World seat will adapt to your personal needs, whether you plan on working, catching up on some sleep, or just unwinding with our world-class dining and entertainment:
your own space to stretch out in privacy
comfy chair that converts into a 183cm (6ft) fully flat bed
memory foam headrest and quilted blanket
.................................................. ....................
.................................................. ............."
Subsequent sections go on to talk about onboard catering, IFE, lounge access and fast track facility. BUT it's undoubtedly the benefits of the CW seat - in its various flexible modes - that BA are keen to highlight when selling their tickets. Less so when responding to, and defending, claims that such benefits were not available to a customer who bought a ticket with such benefits specifically in mind.
Sep 11, 2017, 5:15 am
#23
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 6,349
But I would position my claim exactly as you have set out.
Sep 11, 2017, 5:28 am
#24
FlyerTalk Evangelist, Ambassador, British Airways Executive Club
Join Date: Jun 2008
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I feel sorry for the OP in that the £50 offer from BA was outright idiotic and disrespectful, and I think that much escalation could have been avoided had the more reasonable offer made later (£300/30k avios or a space available upgrade) had been made early on.
I'll admit that however too late such an offer came, I would have probably suggested to the OP to accept it. As pointed out, the upgrade might have the most value if applied well, but the 30k would have allowed use on a non-BA flight with little or no taxes.
I'll admit that not being keen on legal proceedings, I personally wouldn't go the MCOL route but I understand the wish to take things further as long as the risk is understood too. Alternatively, the OP might wish to ask if the latest offer is still on as a gesture that would make him/her decide not to go MCOL.
I'll admit that however too late such an offer came, I would have probably suggested to the OP to accept it. As pointed out, the upgrade might have the most value if applied well, but the 30k would have allowed use on a non-BA flight with little or no taxes.
I'll admit that not being keen on legal proceedings, I personally wouldn't go the MCOL route but I understand the wish to take things further as long as the risk is understood too. Alternatively, the OP might wish to ask if the latest offer is still on as a gesture that would make him/her decide not to go MCOL.
Sep 11, 2017, 5:30 am
#25
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Amsterdam, Asia, UK
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OP please don't be discouraged and carry on. BA are the bully in the playground here, relying heavily on home advantage against unprepared, unknowlegable fliers.
Customer v BA is not exactly a level playing field, whether going to CEDR or MCOL. BA has "internal/retained" professional lawyers who repeatedly defend the same claims, versus non legal minded fliers.
BUT a REAL difference in favour of fliers, is MCOL judges look at the under lying facts and question flier to understand better, not using only just what is stated in filed claims writing with CEDR claims, thus helping out fliers unlike under CEDR
If such flier uses CEDR, w/o legal advice, the liklihood is incorrect wording/claim/amount for the issue encountered, and BA legal dept seeing the CEDR input just laugh at OP, and file off a stock response to win at CEDR
Also CEDR with xero legal attendance cost BA zero ifn extra legal fees to attend court (unlike MCOL) increasing the liklihood of BA defending. Going to MCOL costs BA legal representation $$$'s which BA weigh up against your case and chance of winning
If a flier uses MCOL, then even if a poorly worded incorrect worded claim, the jusges will still (unlike CEDR) be interested in the underlying event and correct the claim based on the MCOL hearing (assuming BA attends, which it rarely does).
If OP goes to MCOL now , which should have been strategy initially, OP is likely to win some reasonable compensation for the "broken seat" .
If OP has FF elite status, then BA can not argue a J-tkt benefit of all of ...first checkin/priority channel airside/extra bag kilos/lounge access/priority-boarding, as not provided by veirtue of J-ticket purchase
So a "broken' seat versus Working in J loses/gains what versus WTP/WT ?
o J = Wider Seat (than W/Y)
o J = More leg room (than W/J)
o j = Lie Flat Seat (NOT PROVIDED)
o J = Better F+B (BA need load+provide food whether OP eats or not... drink less so)
o J ticket is typically 3x Y cost (2x W)
So question is how to value the lie-flat part of J experience, which in my personal view, the only real reason to book J flight over WTP , which WTP seat is wider etc than Y class but lacks leg room of J-seat. That said I wanting to sleep a reclining WTP seat is better than non recling J seat!
OP should certainly be legitimately able to argue for compensation from BA for 1-w difference from WTP->J (or 50% of difference of return W+/J fare) via MCOL no matterwhat CEDR ruling (CEDR ruling is based on subbing claim with wrong info due to upfront no legal advice which BA lawyers just love)
... Though OP won't have access to historical purchase data for his dates, OP can look nn months ahead on same route to check the likely differential to claom for
Customer v BA is not exactly a level playing field, whether going to CEDR or MCOL. BA has "internal/retained" professional lawyers who repeatedly defend the same claims, versus non legal minded fliers.
BUT a REAL difference in favour of fliers, is MCOL judges look at the under lying facts and question flier to understand better, not using only just what is stated in filed claims writing with CEDR claims, thus helping out fliers unlike under CEDR
If such flier uses CEDR, w/o legal advice, the liklihood is incorrect wording/claim/amount for the issue encountered, and BA legal dept seeing the CEDR input just laugh at OP, and file off a stock response to win at CEDR
Also CEDR with xero legal attendance cost BA zero ifn extra legal fees to attend court (unlike MCOL) increasing the liklihood of BA defending. Going to MCOL costs BA legal representation $$$'s which BA weigh up against your case and chance of winning
If a flier uses MCOL, then even if a poorly worded incorrect worded claim, the jusges will still (unlike CEDR) be interested in the underlying event and correct the claim based on the MCOL hearing (assuming BA attends, which it rarely does).
If OP goes to MCOL now , which should have been strategy initially, OP is likely to win some reasonable compensation for the "broken seat" .
If OP has FF elite status, then BA can not argue a J-tkt benefit of all of ...first checkin/priority channel airside/extra bag kilos/lounge access/priority-boarding, as not provided by veirtue of J-ticket purchase
So a "broken' seat versus Working in J loses/gains what versus WTP/WT ?
o J = Wider Seat (than W/Y)
o J = More leg room (than W/J)
o j = Lie Flat Seat (NOT PROVIDED)
o J = Better F+B (BA need load+provide food whether OP eats or not... drink less so)
o J ticket is typically 3x Y cost (2x W)
So question is how to value the lie-flat part of J experience, which in my personal view, the only real reason to book J flight over WTP , which WTP seat is wider etc than Y class but lacks leg room of J-seat. That said I wanting to sleep a reclining WTP seat is better than non recling J seat!
OP should certainly be legitimately able to argue for compensation from BA for 1-w difference from WTP->J (or 50% of difference of return W+/J fare) via MCOL no matterwhat CEDR ruling (CEDR ruling is based on subbing claim with wrong info due to upfront no legal advice which BA lawyers just love)
... Though OP won't have access to historical purchase data for his dates, OP can look nn months ahead on same route to check the likely differential to claom for
Sep 11, 2017, 5:34 am
#26
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Provincie Antwerpen, Vlaanderen, België
Programs: MUCCI Gold
Posts: 2,512
I'd be very surprised if, having "won" at CEDR, that offer would still be extended. Sadly I think the OP will need to be prepared to battle some serious hardball from hereon in to get anything else out of this.
Sep 11, 2017, 5:35 am
#27
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: London, UK
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 2,286
I've highlighted three sections there. Thanks for digging that out.
There is, surely, a difference between distress/inconvenience (which may have been the OP's start point, and doesn't work via MCOL very well either) and BA simply not providing the service that they clearly advertise for Club World, and for which the OP felt that s/he had paid? The latter looks to me to be a breach of contract and other defined consumer laws, rather than purely relying on common law.
I can see the CEDR adjudicator may well have smiled at a submission asking for a full refund, if it was on the basis of distress and inconvenience then that was destined to fail, and asking for an unreasonable amount seems to me to be a badly advised, and an MCOL approach needs to have a more reasonable start point.
There is, surely, a difference between distress/inconvenience (which may have been the OP's start point, and doesn't work via MCOL very well either) and BA simply not providing the service that they clearly advertise for Club World, and for which the OP felt that s/he had paid? The latter looks to me to be a breach of contract and other defined consumer laws, rather than purely relying on common law.
I can see the CEDR adjudicator may well have smiled at a submission asking for a full refund, if it was on the basis of distress and inconvenience then that was destined to fail, and asking for an unreasonable amount seems to me to be a badly advised, and an MCOL approach needs to have a more reasonable start point.
The OP's claim has no prospect of success, largely for the reasons set out by the adjudicator. Advising BA, I would make an application to have the OP's statement of case struck out per CPR 3.4 and seek costs prior to allocation to small claims track. Such an application would very likely succeed. A good summary of the interaction between the MC and domestic law can be found here.
I would advise the OP to try going to the press (Daily Mail?) with his complaint to see whether BA can have their arm publically twisted into refunding some of his ticket cost.
Sep 11, 2017, 5:41 am
#28
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: London, UK
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 2,286
OP please don't be discouraged and carry on. BA are the bully in the playground here, relying heavily on home advantage against unprepared, unknowlegable fliers.
Customer v BA is not exactly a level playing field, whether going to CEDR or MCOL. BA has "internal/retained" professional lawyers who repeatedly defend the same claims, versus non legal minded fliers.
BUT a REAL difference in favour of fliers, is MCOL judges look at the under lying facts and question flier to understand better, not using only just what is stated in filed claims writing with CEDR claims, thus helping out fliers unlike under CEDR
If such flier uses CEDR, w/o legal advice, the liklihood is incorrect wording/claim/amount for the issue encountered, and BA legal dept seeing the CEDR input just laugh at OP, and file off a stock response to win at CEDR
Also CEDR with xero legal attendance cost BA zero ifn extra legal fees to attend court (unlike MCOL) increasing the liklihood of BA defending. Going to MCOL costs BA legal representation $$$'s which BA weigh up against your case and chance of winning
If a flier uses MCOL, then even if a poorly worded incorrect worded claim, the jusges will still (unlike CEDR) be interested in the underlying event and correct the claim based on the MCOL hearing (assuming BA attends, which it rarely does).
If OP goes to MCOL now , which should have been strategy initially, OP is likely to win some reasonable compensation for the "broken seat" .
If OP has FF elite status, then BA can not argue a J-tkt benefit of all of ...first checkin/priority channel airside/extra bag kilos/lounge access/priority-boarding, as not provided by veirtue of J-ticket purchase
So a "broken' seat versus Working in J loses/gains what versus WTP/WT ?
o J = Wider Seat (than W/Y)
o J = More leg room (than W/J)
o j = Lie Flat Seat (NOT PROVIDED)
o J = Better F+B (BA need load+provide food whether OP eats or not... drink less so)
o J ticket is typically 3x Y cost (2x W)
So question is how to value the lie-flat part of J experience, which in my personal view, the only real reason to book J flight over WTP , which WTP seat is wider etc than Y class but lacks leg room of J-seat. That said I wanting to sleep a reclining WTP seat is better than non recling J seat!
OP should certainly be legitimately able to argue for compensation from BA for 1-w difference from WTP->J (or 50% of difference of return W+/J fare) via MCOL no matterwhat CEDR ruling (CEDR ruling is based on subbing claim with wrong info due to upfront no legal advice which BA lawyers just love)
... Though OP won't have access to historical purchase data for his dates, OP can look nn months ahead on same route to check the likely differential to claom for
Customer v BA is not exactly a level playing field, whether going to CEDR or MCOL. BA has "internal/retained" professional lawyers who repeatedly defend the same claims, versus non legal minded fliers.
BUT a REAL difference in favour of fliers, is MCOL judges look at the under lying facts and question flier to understand better, not using only just what is stated in filed claims writing with CEDR claims, thus helping out fliers unlike under CEDR
If such flier uses CEDR, w/o legal advice, the liklihood is incorrect wording/claim/amount for the issue encountered, and BA legal dept seeing the CEDR input just laugh at OP, and file off a stock response to win at CEDR
Also CEDR with xero legal attendance cost BA zero ifn extra legal fees to attend court (unlike MCOL) increasing the liklihood of BA defending. Going to MCOL costs BA legal representation $$$'s which BA weigh up against your case and chance of winning
If a flier uses MCOL, then even if a poorly worded incorrect worded claim, the jusges will still (unlike CEDR) be interested in the underlying event and correct the claim based on the MCOL hearing (assuming BA attends, which it rarely does).
If OP goes to MCOL now , which should have been strategy initially, OP is likely to win some reasonable compensation for the "broken seat" .
If OP has FF elite status, then BA can not argue a J-tkt benefit of all of ...first checkin/priority channel airside/extra bag kilos/lounge access/priority-boarding, as not provided by veirtue of J-ticket purchase
So a "broken' seat versus Working in J loses/gains what versus WTP/WT ?
o J = Wider Seat (than W/Y)
o J = More leg room (than W/J)
o j = Lie Flat Seat (NOT PROVIDED)
o J = Better F+B (BA need load+provide food whether OP eats or not... drink less so)
o J ticket is typically 3x Y cost (2x W)
So question is how to value the lie-flat part of J experience, which in my personal view, the only real reason to book J flight over WTP , which WTP seat is wider etc than Y class but lacks leg room of J-seat. That said I wanting to sleep a reclining WTP seat is better than non recling J seat!
OP should certainly be legitimately able to argue for compensation from BA for 1-w difference from WTP->J (or 50% of difference of return W+/J fare) via MCOL no matterwhat CEDR ruling (CEDR ruling is based on subbing claim with wrong info due to upfront no legal advice which BA lawyers just love)
... Though OP won't have access to historical purchase data for his dates, OP can look nn months ahead on same route to check the likely differential to claom for
I recall reading here that everyone should check that their seat works whilst on the ground and the doors are open. It is far easier to deal with this type of situation there than at 30,000ft where options are few, especially on busy services like CPT-LHR. This is something I do on every longhaul flight.
Sep 11, 2017, 5:52 am
#29
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Bangkok / London
Programs: BA Silver, AmEx Platinum, AVIS Presidents Club, Marriott Titanium Elite
Posts: 1,106
After seeing these reports I wonder if I should test the lie flat ability of my seat before departure while I still have the option to create a fuss and/or "deplane" etc. Not sure what, if any, rights a passenger still has if they voluntarily get off the plane due to something like this, but it would certainly be frustrating for BA especially if it caused a delay while bags were offloaded etc.
Edit: just seen TabTraveller's post above! What would this achieve, in any case? Even if we knew it was broken before doors closed, what would BA do about it? And what happens if a passenger voluntarily (and literally) walks away?
Edit: just seen TabTraveller's post above! What would this achieve, in any case? Even if we knew it was broken before doors closed, what would BA do about it? And what happens if a passenger voluntarily (and literally) walks away?
Sep 11, 2017, 5:57 am
#30
Community Director
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Norwich, UK
Programs: A3*G, BA Gold, BD Gold (in memoriam), IHG Diamond Ambassador
Posts: 8,476
This is poor advice. The Montreal Convention would prevent such a claim from succeeding and the OP runs the real risk of an adverse costs order.
I recall reading here that everyone should check that their seat works whilst on the ground and the doors are open. It is far easier to deal with this type of situation there than at 30,000ft where options are few, especially on busy services like CPT-LHR. This is something I do on every longhaul flight.
I recall reading here that everyone should check that their seat works whilst on the ground and the doors are open. It is far easier to deal with this type of situation there than at 30,000ft where options are few, especially on busy services like CPT-LHR. This is something I do on every longhaul flight.
As I said up-thread, your warnings of the cost of losing are salutary, however - this is no longer a low or no-risk position the OP faces.
In retrospect, it's a pity the OP didn't ask us earlier for advice when the 30,000 Avios/£300 voucher was offered. I think most of us would probably have advised taking that offer, using the voucher for codeshare flights if there was a desire to avoid BA metal, and there's absolutely no way anyone would have suggested putting in a claim for the entire airfare.
We live and learn ...