BA seeks to close NAPS pension scheme

Old Sep 8, 2017, 7:40 am
  #31  
 
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Originally Posted by strichener
Whilst paying over £3.5bln into the pension since 2003 (although I cannot find the figures to back this up), BA have made an operating profit of over £8bln, there is plenty of money to contribute but as you say it is down to choices.
Contributions to the deficit are clearly reported in BA's annual reports. For example £573m in 2016 report, £302m the year before.

I think if I was sitting in NAPs right now, I'd want to close the scheme for future accrual! Might as well lock in the benefits now rather than risk the whole thing imploding
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Old Sep 8, 2017, 8:07 am
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Originally Posted by jonas123
Contributions to the deficit are clearly reported in BA's annual reports. For example £573m in 2016 report, £302m the year before.

I think if I was sitting in NAPs right now, I'd want to close the scheme for future accrual! Might as well lock in the benefits now rather than risk the whole thing imploding
Contributions to Pension Schemes are reported, breakdowns are not. Neither I nor you cannot substantiate the £3.5bln as being attributable to NAPS.
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Old Sep 8, 2017, 8:19 am
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Iwas wondering if BA were still a pension deficit scheme with some planes. This one could get messy.
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Old Sep 8, 2017, 8:31 am
  #34  
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Originally Posted by strichener
Contributions to Pension Schemes are reported, breakdowns are not. Neither I nor you cannot substantiate the £3.5bln as being attributable to NAPS.
Aren't deficit reduction payments by BA reported in the NAPS annual accounts on this site? https://www.mybapension.com/naps/documents/index

EDIT: for example I note the 2016 accounts show (in £m)
- Employer deficit funding - regular 221.0
- Employer deficit funding – cash sweep 227.3

Last edited by KARFA; Sep 8, 2017 at 8:37 am
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Old Sep 8, 2017, 8:47 am
  #35  
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I took mine and ran. It was the best day's work I did since I had a couple having Ugandan Relations (that dates me) and I cooled him down with some well applied ice - once she'd fallen off. I simply can't tell the whole story as there are clearly children watching. Unless you want me to that is.

HIDDY the actuaries have a lot to answer for the Pension Fund was not a Maxwell Situation - the Good Time managment could not get near it. So was I told by someone who should know.
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Old Sep 8, 2017, 10:21 am
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Originally Posted by PUCCI GALORE
I took mine and ran. It was the best day's work I did since I had a couple having Ugandan Relations (that dates me) and I cooled him down with some well applied ice - once she'd fallen off. I simply can't tell the whole story as there are clearly children watching. Unless you want me to that is.

HIDDY the actuaries have a lot to answer for the Pension Fund was not a Maxwell Situation - the Good Time managment could not get near it. So was I told by someone who should know.
We absolutely do want you to tell the whole story!
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Old Sep 8, 2017, 11:00 am
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BA are way late in closing this so the people who are still in it should not go on strike but be immensely grateful BA have kept this going as long as they have (one of my ex employers shut theirs 20 years ago).All this talk of a strike regarding this would be short sighted; BA do after all have to be around to pay the liabilities.

If you are over 50 in this scheme, with long term interest rates being what they are, you should definitely get a valuation as recent changes in legislation have given much more flexibility with what you can do + the potential ability to pass on pension pots etc. A lot of people in defined benefit schemes also don't realize that if they die before they take their pension then they (the Estate) might only get back contributions paid in rather than the potentially much larger pension pot value.

As stated, take proper professional advice before doing anything with your pension.
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Old Sep 9, 2017, 2:50 am
  #38  
 
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Originally Posted by KARFA
Aren't deficit reduction payments by BA reported in the NAPS annual accounts on this site? https://www.mybapension.com/naps/documents/index

EDIT: for example I note the 2016 accounts show (in £m)
- Employer deficit funding - regular 221.0
- Employer deficit funding – cash sweep 227.3
It does, but not back to 2003.
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Old Sep 9, 2017, 2:58 am
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Originally Posted by moral_low_ground
BA are way late in closing this so the people who are still in it should not go on strike but be immensely grateful BA have kept this going as long as they have (one of my ex employers shut theirs 20 years ago).All this talk of a strike regarding this would be short sighted; BA do after all have to be around to pay the liabilities.
BA already made major changes (with member approval) to the scheme 10 years ago when they:
  • Increased the pension age
  • lowered the accrual rate
  • Capped pensionable pay
  • Lowered the cap on pension growth


Staff have every right to look at taking action on these further changes. What other companies have already done is completely irrelevant and no-one should be "immensely grateful" to an employer that meets their contractual obligations.
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Old Sep 9, 2017, 3:31 am
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Originally Posted by strichener
BA already made major changes (with member approval) to the scheme 10 years ago when they:
  • Increased the pension age
  • lowered the accrual rate
  • Capped pensionable pay
  • Lowered the cap on pension growth


Staff have every right to look at taking action on these further changes. What other companies have already done is completely irrelevant and no-one should be "immensely grateful" to an employer that meets their contractual obligations.
Completely agree on the "immensely grateful", meeting obligations is the minimum expectation, however what we should give some credit for is the fact they have attempted to preserve the scheme as long as they have, while at the same time being realistic about the long term viability and taking sensible steps to protect.

My employer is considering the same changes. Like everything else in life, if pension schemes do not evolve in line with the changing demands placed upon them they will ultimately become extinct. Sometimes life comes at you fast and evolution is no longer an option...like the dinosaurs.

Better to have accruals already made consolidated than risk losing the lot. If BA goes to the wall, NAPS members will be at the back of the queue for compensation.
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Old Sep 9, 2017, 3:47 am
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Originally Posted by strichener
no-one should be "immensely grateful" to an employer that meets their contractual obligations.
I would be amazed if membership of the final salary scheme was a contractual entitlement. If it is, don't go on strike go to court.

I suspect that in reality it's a perk, and it would be the somewhat predictable response of a unionised industry to threaten strike action, rather than be grateful for what has been received over the last 15 - 20 years.

That's gratitude for you
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Old Sep 9, 2017, 4:31 am
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Originally Posted by Agent69
That's gratitude for you
Classy.
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Old Sep 9, 2017, 4:34 am
  #43  
 
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The race to the bottom continues.
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Old Sep 9, 2017, 4:50 am
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Originally Posted by Agent69
I would be amazed if membership of the final salary scheme was a contractual entitlement. If it is, don't go on strike go to court.

I suspect that in reality it's a perk, and it would be the somewhat predictable response of a unionised industry to threaten strike action, rather than be grateful for what has been received over the last 15 - 20 years.

That's gratitude for you
A pension is deferred payment - it's part of the package that you accept in remuneration for the work you do; part of the contract of employment, it's not a perk. If a company wants to change the pension, they need to negaitiate with the workforce with whose remuneration package they are attempting to change. Talk of gratitude is like talking about a fish playing football, as stupid as it is irrelevant.
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Old Sep 9, 2017, 5:41 am
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It's difficult isn't it? On the one hand, I feel that if the company has 'promised' somebody something then they should stick to their bargain; on the other, if it's right that funding the scheme is effectively half a year's profit then that doesn't sound very sustainable. What I don't know from Maria's email is whether BA can save money by plugging the deficit by making tax deductions (ie are they saving a lot in corporation (for example) tax by doing this)?

However BA (and others) got themselves into this position, it wouldn't take much to make this scheme unworkable by the sound of it.

By closing the scheme down at least people in 15 years' time might get something. However unfair it is.

Am I missing something?
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