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Another 241 downgrade story - from F - with no [EC261] compo

Another 241 downgrade story - from F - with no [EC261] compo

Old Aug 24, 17, 4:05 am
  #31  
 
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So if one finds oneself in the situation of the OP, booked on a 2-4-1 in F that has been oversold and they start bumping people, what is reasonable to expect / ask for as a resolution?

The downgrade to Club and £500 (cash?) seems OK to me in the context above.
If it reasonable to ask them to move both passengers to another flight in F (and pay an accommodation costs accrued if it is the next day)?

I admit I have a vested interest as I have a LHR-IAD-LHR trip in F coming up, booked using a 2-4-1. Outbound is F5 A4 but inbound is F0 A0 and all seats show as selected on both EF and BA such that I can't change my seat. Can I be confident that with F0 A0 they are not selling more, or could that 15th someone already bought a ticket and not got a seat?

Would also be interesting as a data point to know if the OP / Companion were status-holders with BA?
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Old Aug 24, 17, 4:08 am
  #32  
 
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If you'd paid say, £560.00 fees / surcharges on a longhaul ex LHR F as the companion, your comp on the segment downgraded would be 75% of £280 = £196.00. Zero Avios

Although cheap, the £500 given seems generous if this is the amount owed
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Old Aug 24, 17, 4:10 am
  #33  
 
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Did the downgraded passenger have any BA or OW status?

It could be that they are downgrading based on fare class (possibly with some caveats around status) and reward tickets book into the lowest fare class. That would make commercial sense, and you could argue is also fairer (if someone's paid full fare they will expect other pax to be downgraded first).

Given this is the way upgrades are also dealt with, wouldn't it make sense this is the way downgrades are too? Or at least in theory, with some possible manual override.
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Old Aug 24, 17, 4:12 am
  #34  
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tl;dr: BA has opaque policy/algorithm that people want to reverse engineer by pattern matching surface details of several anecdotes, despite likelihood of circumstance(s) unique to each one. A variety of plausible conclusions are reached, along a continuum of nefariousness on BA's part. Next thread at 11.
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Old Aug 24, 17, 4:26 am
  #35  
 
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Originally Posted by SK AAR View Post
I certainly understand BA's take on this. For a "free ticket" there should be no EC 261/04 comp. and GBP 500 seem very generous in this situation.
Its not a "free ticket".

Originally Posted by SK AAR View Post
It is beyond me why BA continues to accept AMEX 241 redemptions.
I'd wager it is because BA's relationship with Amex and with the customers using the voucher is financially advantageous to them.
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Old Aug 24, 17, 4:27 am
  #36  
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Originally Posted by MrMutton View Post
I admit I have a vested interest as I have a LHR-IAD-LHR trip in F coming up, booked using a 2-4-1. Outbound is F5 A4 but inbound is F0 A0 and all seats show as selected on both EF and BA such that I can't change my seat. Can I be confident that with F0 A0 they are not selling more, or could that 15th someone already bought a ticket and not got a seat?
If you have an allocated seat then that is certainly helpful, though TBS' experience yesterday/today indicates even that isn't necessarily a blocker. It is possible there is someone else with a First booking but no seat, but again looking at the significant movements on TBS' experience in just a few hours, anything could happen. If a kid in a large family group gets chicken pox on the morning of departure then an aircraft can go from vastly overbooked to plenty of unused seats in a click of a button.

The best advice I can suggest is simply to check-in online as soon as you can and then leave it at that. Despite the impression that may be emerging here, the vast majority of 2-4-1 travellers get away in their booked cabin.
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Old Aug 24, 17, 4:32 am
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Paralytic View Post
Its not a "free ticket"....
Correct.
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Old Aug 24, 17, 4:40 am
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Tobias-UK View Post
Correct.
I have seen the MCOL submissions made by BA in regard to the compensation claim made by a HFP reader whose 241 companion wife was downgraded on the way to the Maldives. They clearly state that BA believes the voucher has no value and that the 2nd seat is free.

This case has been settled in favour of the reader but there is a gagging order in place and even I have not seen the final numbers. Smartly, the reader sent me the paperwork before he signed :-)

PS. BA Amex spending is now over £1 billion per month ....
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Old Aug 24, 17, 4:44 am
  #39  
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Originally Posted by mikeyfly View Post
If you'd paid say, £560.00 fees / surcharges on a longhaul ex LHR F as the companion, your comp on the segment downgraded would be 75% of £280 = £196.00. Zero Avios

Although cheap, the £500 given seems generous if this is the amount owed

For accuracy EU61 does not mention compensation for a downgrade - it refers to 'reimbursement'.

The courts have also ruled that

(a) the reimbursement is based on the cost of the sector downgraded not the entire ticket

(b) the taxes and fees etc are excluded from the calculation. The only time you would get a refund on any tax element would be for example someone was downgraded into economy on an ex-UK flight.
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Old Aug 24, 17, 4:45 am
  #40  
 
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To be fair, I think £500 voucher is pretty good here
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Old Aug 24, 17, 4:49 am
  #41  
 
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Originally Posted by Raffles View Post
PS. BA Amex spending is now over £1 billion per month ....
But does BA get any percentage of that? I supposed if they are selling each avios to Amex at 1p that's a lot of money.
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Old Aug 24, 17, 5:04 am
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Raffles View Post
I have seen the MCOL submissions made by BA in regard to the compensation claim made by a HFP reader whose 241 companion wife was downgraded on the way to the Maldives. They clearly state that BA believes the voucher has no value and that the 2nd seat is free.

This case has been settled in favour of the reader but there is a gagging order in place and even I have not seen the final numbers. Smartly, the reader sent me the paperwork before he signed :-)

PS. BA Amex spending is now over £1 billion per month ....
Airlines will plead this in legal proceedings as they will not want to admit liability under EC261. Remember it is the Claimant's responsibility to prove their case - and that includes establishing the value of the ticket. It matters not what BA thinks, it is the courts view that matters.

Airlines will settle at the doorstep, this will allow them to continue telling their passengers that the seat is 'free' and therefore outside the scope of EC261.
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Old Aug 24, 17, 5:40 am
  #43  
 
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Originally Posted by Paralytic View Post
Its not a "free ticket".
It is a free ticket. The passenger is still traveling for free even though in the downgraded cabin. I wonder, would the voucher's holder agree to pay full Avios for the downgraded cabin in exchange for the reinstatement of the voucher so that they can have another go at flying in the cabin they wanted? Also, if the voucher is reinstated but the holder does not pay for the companion's transportation in the downgraded cabin - who pays for it? And, how should the airline aproach the situation in case of a two-for-one cash deal? Does that have value as well? Would a passenger claim that the deal should be offered again? Or that compensation should be based on the hypothetical price of two tickets? It is not all black and white with these vouchers. I think what would be fair is for the passenger to receive compensation based on the number of Avios paid and then decide if they want to pay for the companion's travel in the downgraded cabin and have the voucher reinstated or just forget about the voucher.
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Old Aug 24, 17, 5:41 am
  #44  
 
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Originally Posted by Raffles View Post
PS. BA Amex spending is now over £1 billion per month ....
That's a lot of BA Amex cards maybe a million or so give or take. Which probably equates to a similar number of 2-4-1 vouchers per year. The number of downgrades is going to be pretty substantial on that regardless of FLY programming.
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Old Aug 24, 17, 5:42 am
  #45  
 
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Originally Posted by UKtravelbear View Post
(b) the taxes and fees etc are excluded from the calculation. The only time you would get a refund on any tax element would be for example someone was downgraded into economy on an ex-UK flight.
Not disagreeing with you but the ruling is odd given that fees (YQ) vary so widely between classes.

What's to stop the airline from saying that no YQ is refundable in the event of volunrtary cancellation (or downgrade), the fare is £1, and YQ is £1000?
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