'If We Have to Crash Land, Please Leave Your Bags'

Old Aug 23, 17, 2:46 am
  #31  
 
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Originally Posted by henry999 View Post
Earlier in the thread:
In which case, the crew member needs to go back and take another look at the notice. The correct wording of the relevant part of the PA is:

"...please now take a moment to remind yourself of your nearest exit and study the safety card in your seat area. In the event of an emergency, leave all hand luggage behind..."
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Old Aug 23, 17, 2:59 am
  #32  
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Originally Posted by SvenAge View Post
I would hope that they would not. Really, this world is full of busy-bodies and tell tales. If someone made a mistake, big deal.
I guess you probably don't have a fear of flying, nor know someone who does? The effect of such stupid choice of words on someone who has a real fear of flying could be significant.

You seem to be assuming that the crew member somehow realises that they "made a mistake" and won't do it again? My thoughts are that if someone doesn't pull this crew member up about this, then they will probably just keep making the same stupid mistake again and again. I am not suggesting they are sacked. But they need to be told it is not acceptable. It may be a training issue or maybe it was a poor attempt at humour. Either way they need to use more appropriate words.
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Old Aug 23, 17, 3:14 am
  #33  
 
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I think the previous posts have pretty much covered it.

People do things that make sense to them at the time. Understanding why it made sense and changing that are key to this (and many other) issues.

If anyone has any great ideas how to solve this then do let me know.

Also I almost forgot the Manchester 737 fire was 32 years ago yesterday. There is a good (if that's the right word) description of the event from a crew perspective on this blog . Warning it's understandably an emotive topic.
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Old Aug 23, 17, 3:28 am
  #34  
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If anyone has any great ideas how to solve this then do let me know.
Forcing passengers to pay attention to safety briefings would be a good start.
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Old Aug 23, 17, 4:25 am
  #35  
 
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Originally Posted by simonrp84 View Post
Forcing passengers to pay attention to safety briefings would be a good start.
Interesting. Genuine question: what is your evidence to indicate that this would actually make a difference?
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Old Aug 23, 17, 5:10 am
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Originally Posted by Dr Dave View Post
Interesting. Genuine question: what is your evidence to indicate that this would actually make a difference?

Great question not just for this issue but lots of interventions in different settings. There is a reluctance to conduct (and fund) research or control groups studies.

Anyhow: the research coming after the Manchester accident suggested around half of passengers self-reported as paying attention to the safety briefings in the early 1990s. This rose to 80% ish in an Australian study in the mid 2000s.

Of course if half report paying attention it means the other half report as not and there is likely social bias of saying you do when being interviewed about airline safety so the true number is probably lower.


In a nutshell in 2006 the Australian ATSB reported on passenger attention to safety communications saying:

Passenger overconfidence, poor perceptions regarding relevance, low passenger compliance, mixed levels of understanding, communications that fail to capture interest, and the presence of destructive social norms were all found to be inhibiting communication effectiveness.
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Old Aug 23, 17, 6:12 am
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Dr Dave View Post
Interesting. Genuine question: what is your evidence to indicate that this would actually make a difference?
Helen Muir from Cranfield University has done a lot of research in this regard, it's worth looking up some of her papers (I can't link using this device, unfortunately).
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Old Aug 23, 17, 6:54 am
  #38  
 
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It's nice to see that even with all the photos of people carrying bags in the evacuations above that everyone got out alive... maybe it's not too bad if a few people normally do ignore the rule.
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Old Aug 23, 17, 7:34 am
  #39  
 
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Originally Posted by simonrp84 View Post
Forcing passengers to pay attention to safety briefings would be a good start.
Originally Posted by simonrp84 View Post
Helen Muir from Cranfield University has done a lot of research in this regard, it's worth looking up some of her papers (I can't link using this device, unfortunately).
Sadly I think Helen Muir died (prematurely) in 2010. She was a great loss as she did some terrific work.
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Old Aug 23, 17, 7:40 am
  #40  
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Originally Posted by 710 77345 View Post
... maybe it's not too bad if a few people normally do ignore the rule.
Well, let's wait and see if you change your mind when stuck in a burning aircraft behind people gathering their belongings before making their exit ... or once you make it down the emergency slide find someone has just chucked their 20kg roller-case down and it lands on your head.

Having tackled small fires fuelled by aviation fuel (in training situations I should add, with full protective fire-fighting clothing on) I can guarantee that I'll be making my way towards an exit as fast as I can if I find myself unfortunate enough to be in an accident that requires emergency evacuation.

However, people are unpredictable and sometimes do illogical things when under stress. But it is partly the duty of other people around them who are thinking more clearly to order them as to what to do. Simple words or phrases would suffice .... "MOVE!", "LEAVE IT!", "GET TO THE EXIT!"
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Old Aug 23, 17, 7:59 am
  #41  
 
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Originally Posted by tinkicker View Post
Great question not just for this issue but lots of interventions in different settings. There is a reluctance to conduct (and fund) research or control groups studies.

Anyhow: the research coming after the Manchester accident suggested around half of passengers self-reported as paying attention to the safety briefings in the early 1990s. This rose to 80% ish in an Australian study in the mid 2000s.

Of course if half report paying attention it means the other half report as not and there is likely social bias of saying you do when being interviewed about airline safety so the true number is probably lower.


In a nutshell in 2006 the Australian ATSB reported on passenger attention to safety communications saying:
I find compliance with safety announcements really interesting too.

My experience has mainly been of commuting on the London Underground. I've always been a bit paranoid since I vividly remember watching TV coverage of the King's Cross fire when I was a child, and it terrified me. I don't worry about it day-to-day but in the event that I'm in a tube station and they announce a fire alert and evacuation, as happens from time to time if you travel on it enough, I do leave immediately.

Over the years I've been struck by the differences in attitude of my fellow commuters, which vary hugely depending on how recently there's been a real incident of some kind. In particular I remember arriving at work one morning in late June 2005, having been delayed by an evacuation at King's Cross, aghast at how I'd had to push through my fellow commuters to leave the platform as most of them were determined to stay and continue their journeys uninterrupted by foolish concerns such as burning to death. When the same thing happened a few months later, after the 7/7 bombings, everybody moved. Over time it became more complacent again, although these are just my non-scientific observations.

I would imagine there is the same up-tick in passengers paying attention to safety announcements on planes following crashes in the news.

Of course this may or may not be reflected in what people actually do when panicking in a smoke-filled cabin.
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Old Aug 23, 17, 3:28 pm
  #42  
 
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Originally Posted by gms View Post
I guess you probably don't have a fear of flying, nor know someone who does? The effect of such stupid choice of words on someone who has a real fear of flying could be significant.

You seem to be assuming that the crew member somehow realises that they "made a mistake" and won't do it again? My thoughts are that if someone doesn't pull this crew member up about this, then they will probably just keep making the same stupid mistake again and again. I am not suggesting they are sacked. But they need to be told it is not acceptable. It may be a training issue or maybe it was a poor attempt at humour. Either way they need to use more appropriate words.
I am not familiar with people who have an irrational fear of flying. I don't think I could sit with someone who would be so fearful as it would be very aggravating. I would wonder why they believed their concerns for their safety should be greater than my concerns for my own safety and why they would be making an issue over something that needn't be. Yes, that perhaps defines irrational, but if people are so scared then the only way to get beyond this is to take a deep breath and apply some logic. We all have things that we are sensitive to and fearful of; none of us is more immune than the next person (generally). I also understand that each of us have different experiences, but at the same time, this is a unique one-time event that needn't be seen as fraught with danger. Just like I hate getting on roller coasters and feel physically terrible before, I've still broken the fear before getting on by asking the simple question of why would I be in more danger than the thousands before and after me (and yes maybe this does stem from once upon a time when the device didn't function to secure itself). Whenever I'm concerned on a flight, I also say that there are literally millions of flights each year, and that I'd have to be extremely unlucky to be caught up in something and that if I was, it would be out of my hands (for the most part). Likewise, if someone has survived a flight before, chances are they will survive another.

I really don't think people living in fear is the right way. It's an unhealthy choice for the person and the people around them. They should seek proper help.

The point is also that people can control what affects them if they know how. It's a myth that 'he did this to me because he said that'. Each individual can control the extent to which they are affected by behaviours. Many people just do not realise this but it can be done - of course easier said than done, but still, useful if you take a step back.
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Old Aug 23, 17, 3:44 pm
  #43  
 
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All very interesting. Meanwhile out in reality, I've got a relative who's a very nervous flyer. I can persuade her to fly, but cringed when I heard this story because this use of words would cause significant anxiety. I'm all for OP reporting this to BA for further discipline or retraining for the crew member. And I do think discipline might be appropriate not just for veering off script but for doing so in A way that showed such terrible judgment.

Originally Posted by SvenAge View Post
I am not familiar with people who have an irrational fear of flying. I don't think I could sit with someone who would be so fearful as it would be very aggravating. I would wonder why they believed their concerns for their safety should be greater than my concerns for my own safety and why they would be making an issue over something that needn't be. Yes, that perhaps defines irrational, but if people are so scared then the only way to get beyond this is to take a deep breath and apply some logic. We all have things that we are sensitive to and fearful of; none of us is more immune than the next person (generally). I also understand that each of us have different experiences, but at the same time, this is a unique one-time event that needn't be seen as fraught with danger. Just like I hate getting on roller coasters and feel physically terrible before, I've still broken the fear before getting on by asking the simple question of why would I be in more danger than the thousands before and after me (and yes maybe this does stem from once upon a time when the device didn't function to secure itself). Whenever I'm concerned on a flight, I also say that there are literally millions of flights each year, and that I'd have to be extremely unlucky to be caught up in something and that if I was, it would be out of my hands (for the most part). Likewise, if someone has survived a flight before, chances are they will survive another.

I really don't think people living in fear is the right way. It's an unhealthy choice for the person and the people around them. They should seek proper help.

The point is also that people can control what affects them if they know how. It's a myth that 'he did this to me because he said that'. Each individual can control the extent to which they are affected by behaviours. Many people just do not realise this but it can be done - of course easier said than done, but still, useful if you take a step back.
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Old Aug 23, 17, 3:50 pm
  #44  
 
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Originally Posted by CrazyJ82 View Post
All very interesting. Meanwhile out in reality, I've got a relative who's a very nervous flyer. I can persuade her to fly, but cringed when I heard this story because this use of words would cause significant anxiety. I'm all for OP reporting this to BA for further discipline or retraining for the crew member. And I do think discipline might be appropriate not just for veering off script but for doing so in A way that showed such terrible judgment.
Wow, indeed it is a strange world we live in. So I'm sure this is where the 5% do the damage and the rest of us pick up the pieces and have to suffer the consequences.

This is a mental state that people need to sort out before getting on a plane, frankly. I'd be tempted to suggest that people in this state not be allowed to travel - they could well be a danger to the rest of us and to themselves in the long run - PTSD etc.
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Last edited by SvenAge; Aug 23, 17 at 4:10 pm
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Old Aug 23, 17, 8:22 pm
  #45  
 
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Originally Posted by SvenAge View Post
Wow, indeed it is a strange world we live in. So I'm sure this is where the 5% do the damage and the rest of us pick up the pieces and have to suffer the consequences.

This is a mental state that people need to sort out before getting on a plane, frankly. I'd be tempted to suggest that people in this state not be allowed to travel - they could well be a danger to the rest of us and to themselves in the long run - PTSD etc.
Common sense vs. empathizing with a minuscule number of flier's feelings and state of mind...what should rule ?

When an evacuation order comes, people still do not follow instructions. So repetition in warnings win by a mile over one person's personal state of mind.
Odds are such a person may freeze in such a situation and hinder others' exits.
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