HarryKUK

If you are involuntarily downgraded (whether 2-4-1 or not) and you refuse to accept what's the worst that can happen?

If you push to be booked onto a later service in the same class, or on an alliance carrier, and the airport staff point blank refuse and you reach a stalemate what happens?

Could you end up having your ticket cancelled altogether if you refuse to board the aircraft in the lower class and be left standing in the terminal? Or does this not happen?

corporate-wage-slave

Ultimately I would see this a breach of contract, so it would be down to you and BA to come up with a reasonable outcome and if not you're off to a judge or mediator. BA do have quite broad powers to deny boarding, so I don't think you can insist on being carried, but clearly if BA don't come up with alternative suggestions, and a judge deems it to be "involuntary denied boarding" then BA are on the hook for both a refund and up to 600€ compensation and/or any replacement costs on alternative carriers.

Generally it doesn't come to that, the only real sticky ones are the once a day flights to and from LGW, where there frankly isn't usually a sensible alternative - future flights are also fully booked and alternative routes are unattractive to all concerned. For LHR a combination re-routing options and the ATM card tends to prevent too much pain.

I would guess the main casualties in this area, incidentally, are WT passengers at LGW going to TPA and MCO, I often see them being rebooked out of LHR to MIA. These tend to be infrequent flyers and while most of us would perhaps regard a LHR-MIA routing as not a bad outcome, it probably doesn't feel like that to the people concerned.

jenecho

Has anyone known part of a group to be downgraded? Are you safer if there are four people travelling?

Have just booked 4 tickets in club to ANU next August. Both on Amex 241, all together on the same PNR. Two of the travellers are small children. Just seen that one of the anecdotes re downgrading was ANU in august!
Is there any way to see which of the passengers are marked as FREE tickets eg as the companions? Is there any way the computer would try to downgrade small children without the parents? Or parents without the children for that matter?
And given the rule of the companion vouchers is that all companions have to travel in the same class on the same flight as the cardholder, surely splitting the group would break their own rules!

rpjs

Just to add a data point, we have just completed a Chase 241 BOS-LHR-BOS, out in F, back in J (would liked to have done it the other way round but there was no availability).

We returned to BOS on the 203 on Friday 8th September. The 229 to BWI had been cancelled and at least some of its pax were rebooked onto our flight which was about 45 mins late departing as a result. Up until we boarded and got green beeps at the gate, I was dreading us being downgraded, especially as I'd got us CW centre bassinet seats at T-24 OLCI so we could have direct aisle access. But in fact there were no problems and I'd say the lower deck CW was about 1/4 to 1/3 empty.

solwayspeedbird

Hi All
Just a quick update, I have submitted a claim for the downgrade with BA and the refunds team are working on this.

I have also informed Amex of the situation and a note has been placed on my account. I also informed Amex that as my renewal is due on Oct 28th I may cancel the card before then if I think the benefits especially the 2 4 1 are being eroded. The person I spoke to said they would escalate this to the Amex/BA team for them to look into.

I presume with the IT meltdown and the weather situation in the Caribbean that the refunds team are snowed under, so how long should I wait before escalation?

Thanks as always

ss

corporate-wage-slave

Refunds can be 2 months even in normal circumstances, unfortunately. I would make your own calculation in the meantime, and think about 16 days notice for when you get fed up of waiting.

solwayspeedbird

As the title says got fed up and gave them a call. Phoned customer relations and they said as the flight was already flown would have to speak to refunds team, on hold for 10 mins for them to tell me as it was avios then they would have to pass me back to customer relations, but they could offer me 25000 avios as the difference between J and W. Spoke to CR again to be put on hold whilst they spoke to refunds team then offered 25000 avios again. I said no thanks I was informed that under eur 261 I should get 75%. Put on hold again whilst they spoke to a supervisor. Then they said no, I could have the fare difference and not 75%. They then put me through to the exec club and when I explained the situation they could do nothing to help and tried putting me through to refunds again at which point we were fortunately cut off.....

The 25000 posted overnight, but must say not thrilled by the outcome

ss

corporate-wage-slave

OK, well if you want to take the matter further, as per post 96 work out what you are now due, taking into account the Avios and cash card along with the part used 2-4-1. The way to work it out is to be found in the main EC261 thread in the Dashboard, then give BA 16 days notice to give you the shortfall on your calculation. Don't use CEDR, but think in terms of MCOL, either with or without the arbitration box ticked. Consider adding AMEX into the MCOL submission but you can only do that if you also give AMEX the chance to restore the 2-4-1 or something similar.

solwayspeedbird

Thanks [B]C-W-S[B]

Just to confirm, the affected sector was 75000. They have refunded 25k + Ł400 which equates to 24k avios if I purchase from BA.com.
75% equates to 56250, should I just ask for the remaining 7250 avios? or class the Ł400 as an ex gratia compensation payment?

ss

corporate-wage-slave

You have to factor the payment card in the cash towards the settlement, realistically, I don't think you'd get away with the Ł400 on top. Don't forget the cash component to the redemption (and it's not clear where the 2-4-1 is in this calculation) but have a look at the examples in the main thread for more information.

Anonba

In a downgrade scenario change booking agents would be able to ensure you get the difference in Avios or fare back.

However only customer relations would handle compensation which is what you are looking for.

TPloser

Refering to your earlier post mentioning involving AMEX then if this was a breach of contract type situation then it shuld also include AMEX because the condition of the 2-4-1 voucher is that you must use the AMEX card associated with the voucher to pay the taxes and extra surcharges BA impose which would bring AMEX into breach also under credit card regs I believe.

I've got a 2-4-1 redemption shortly and if I was downgraded and the voucher was returned it expires within a week so not much use to me. Likewise a 75% refund of AVIOS would not allow me to book another long haul to the same destination even if reward availability was around and if I got 75% avios back I could not go back to the same destination so would not be impressed and would want to take it further with both to ensure I had a voucher with a further 2 year validity and full avios refund plus... (wishful thinking maybe but is probably the minimum I would expect from BA and AMEX for us bottom feeders who take years to generate enough avios for a flight - I'd probably be doubley upset if it was to happen - first on downgrade secondly on compensation by the sounds of this thread ).

DYKWIA

Reading most of the posts on the EC261 thread, it would appear that BA do not refund the Amex voucher.

orbitmic

your hope to get 100% Avis back is wholly unrealistic. We are not talking about a cancellation but a downgrade and it's not as though, say, flying lhr-syd in j (instead of f) could be discounted as equivalent to not travelling at all.

TPloser

In your scenario of F to J maybe but a J to W maybe not. My only reason for travelling would to be experience a long haul J of F and other commitment such as pre-paid hotels would mean I would need to go or loss lots of money in the lower class but the sole purpose of my trip would have been to experience the higher flight cabin using the voucher. I do not think it is unreasonable to want the ability to have this experience represented to me just like it is not unreasonable for BA to give free upgrades when they overbook cabins. I would still be out of pocket as I would need to pay hotels taxis etc when I retried the trip to have the experience in the correct class.

I'm sure a few years ago a lot of people would have said it was unreasonable to expect 600 euros for a flight arriving 4 hours late but now it is often pointed out as a right. This to me seems more unreasonable and it is actually a legal right so reasonable can easily be redefined. I may be in the minority but I feel loss of a hard earned voucher and insufficent avios to allow a repeat attempt is unreasonable. Maybe the answer is somewhere inbetween maybe not.