Airlines must refund return fare when passengers miss outbound flight
Jan 12, 2018, 3:36 am
#16
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Has anybody had any success with similar claims against BA? As far as I can see nothing similar has come to court, but has anyone on this board managed to get BA to protect a return, or to refund a cancelled return flight in this situation?
I have a similar situation, although is slightly more complex as it involves an OptionTown FlightPass issued ticket, for which BA cancelled the return after I was unable to fly the outbound. I think this would mean that any formal claim would need to be against both BA and OptionTown.
BA's emailed response to me, in November 2017, was: "There is a new ruling regarding protecting return flights when the outbound isn't used but this is only for tickets sold and originating in Italy. In that instance the customer has to call the airline within 24hrs of the missed flight. In all other scenarios if the outbound flight is down as a 'no show' (ie it is not taken) then the return/onward flights will automatically cancel."
I would be interested to hear others' experiences.
If I were to take this further, do those who have claimed against BA recommend CEDR first or MCOL?
I have a similar situation, although is slightly more complex as it involves an OptionTown FlightPass issued ticket, for which BA cancelled the return after I was unable to fly the outbound. I think this would mean that any formal claim would need to be against both BA and OptionTown.
BA's emailed response to me, in November 2017, was: "There is a new ruling regarding protecting return flights when the outbound isn't used but this is only for tickets sold and originating in Italy. In that instance the customer has to call the airline within 24hrs of the missed flight. In all other scenarios if the outbound flight is down as a 'no show' (ie it is not taken) then the return/onward flights will automatically cancel."
I would be interested to hear others' experiences.
If I were to take this further, do those who have claimed against BA recommend CEDR first or MCOL?
Jan 12, 2018, 4:36 am
#17
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I'm not aware of any developments other than the Iberia case mentioned at the top of the thread, which was a bit unusual in that the claimant happened to be a barrister himself (albeit family law). You may also want to look at the Consumer Rights Act thread in the Forum Dashboard.
Jan 12, 2018, 6:34 pm
#18
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Thanks c-w-s for this, and the pointer to the consumer rights act thread.
I guess it's easier to make a legal claim confidently if, like the claimant in Dove v Iberia, one is a lawyer.
I think airlines are morally in the wrong on this. The insistence that coupons are flown in order, and the cancelling of the entire ticket if one sector is not flown, is not really a fair contact term. Eventually consumer rights legislation and shifting will catch up with this - as it largely has in many jurisdictions with regard to delays and cooling off periods. There have been cases about this in the German courts, and it is interesting that BA refer to the situation already being different to allow returns to be protected in Italy.
Having revisited the OptionTown FlightPass T&Cs for the first time since booking the pass a while ago, I am also motivated to contest this by OptionTown's sloppy terms for FlightPass: the invoice and its terms and conditions mention 24 single flights and nowhere in the T&C does it say that this can only be booked as 12 return flights, which is the reality, and the T&C it also says that flights can be changed at any time before travel (and implied in this is within the 4 hour window before the flight) on payment of a fee to increase flexibility - which was not offered to me, and as far as I can tell is not offered to customers trying to rebook. Taking the T&C at face value, arguably there is a case for both the outward flight being refunded (as OptionTown did not offer me a rebooking with fee once I had asked them if they could change it), and for as the return flight being refunded (on two bases: that the T&C do not state that flights have to be booked as a return, which suggests I should have been able to book the trip as two single flights in the first place; and on the basis referenced in this thread, that BA refused to protect the return flight when requested).
The immediate questions, however are (i) how likely a CEDR adjudicator or a small claims court judge is likely to agree with Dove v Iberia and apply a similar decision with regard to my return flight, and how likely not; (ii) is a small claims court judge or a CEDR adjudicator more likely to know of or give weight to the Dove v Iberia decision; and (iii) how likely are BA/OptionTown to blink shortly before the hearing?
I guess it's easier to make a legal claim confidently if, like the claimant in Dove v Iberia, one is a lawyer.
I think airlines are morally in the wrong on this. The insistence that coupons are flown in order, and the cancelling of the entire ticket if one sector is not flown, is not really a fair contact term. Eventually consumer rights legislation and shifting will catch up with this - as it largely has in many jurisdictions with regard to delays and cooling off periods. There have been cases about this in the German courts, and it is interesting that BA refer to the situation already being different to allow returns to be protected in Italy.
Having revisited the OptionTown FlightPass T&Cs for the first time since booking the pass a while ago, I am also motivated to contest this by OptionTown's sloppy terms for FlightPass: the invoice and its terms and conditions mention 24 single flights and nowhere in the T&C does it say that this can only be booked as 12 return flights, which is the reality, and the T&C it also says that flights can be changed at any time before travel (and implied in this is within the 4 hour window before the flight) on payment of a fee to increase flexibility - which was not offered to me, and as far as I can tell is not offered to customers trying to rebook. Taking the T&C at face value, arguably there is a case for both the outward flight being refunded (as OptionTown did not offer me a rebooking with fee once I had asked them if they could change it), and for as the return flight being refunded (on two bases: that the T&C do not state that flights have to be booked as a return, which suggests I should have been able to book the trip as two single flights in the first place; and on the basis referenced in this thread, that BA refused to protect the return flight when requested).
The immediate questions, however are (i) how likely a CEDR adjudicator or a small claims court judge is likely to agree with Dove v Iberia and apply a similar decision with regard to my return flight, and how likely not; (ii) is a small claims court judge or a CEDR adjudicator more likely to know of or give weight to the Dove v Iberia decision; and (iii) how likely are BA/OptionTown to blink shortly before the hearing?
Jan 13, 2018, 12:29 am
#19
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I'm not aware of any new development either, but for the record, it seems to me that the answer you received from customer relations is more helpful and precise than usual and in a way they seem to be very explicit to you about the airline's policy shift.
In my opinion, your three questions above are totally unanswerable so I will not try to, especially the first. In terms of the second, I think one can only repeat that county court decisions do not constitute precedent, and conversely, other judgements passed in courts in a given country do not have standing in a different country (and ECJ judgement would be different but that is not what we are talking about here). In my view, the answer to your third question is totally unlikely to blink.
They have by and large no incentive to, though, hilariously, their actual worst nightmare in my view would not be that they lose the case, but rather that they win the case and that you decide to appeal, because there is then more stakes attached to the appeals ruling as it can create precedent. However, if you want to 'make history' in such a way, I'd recommend that you actually contract the services of a very gifted solicitor at appeal stage and that might be expensive.
In my opinion, your three questions above are totally unanswerable so I will not try to, especially the first. In terms of the second, I think one can only repeat that county court decisions do not constitute precedent, and conversely, other judgements passed in courts in a given country do not have standing in a different country (and ECJ judgement would be different but that is not what we are talking about here). In my view, the answer to your third question is totally unlikely to blink.
They have by and large no incentive to, though, hilariously, their actual worst nightmare in my view would not be that they lose the case, but rather that they win the case and that you decide to appeal, because there is then more stakes attached to the appeals ruling as it can create precedent. However, if you want to 'make history' in such a way, I'd recommend that you actually contract the services of a very gifted solicitor at appeal stage and that might be expensive.
Jan 13, 2018, 2:03 am
#20
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 6,334
Thanks c-w-s for this, and the pointer to the consumer rights act thread.
I guess it's easier to make a legal claim confidently if, like the claimant in Dove v Iberia, one is a lawyer.
I think airlines are morally in the wrong on this. The insistence that coupons are flown in order, and the cancelling of the entire ticket if one sector is not flown, is not really a fair contact term. Eventually consumer rights legislation and shifting will catch up with this - as it largely has in many jurisdictions with regard to delays and cooling off periods. There have been cases about this in the German courts, and it is interesting that BA refer to the situation already being different to allow returns to be protected in Italy.
Having revisited the OptionTown FlightPass T&Cs for the first time since booking the pass a while ago, I am also motivated to contest this by OptionTown's sloppy terms for FlightPass: the invoice and its terms and conditions mention 24 single flights and nowhere in the T&C does it say that this can only be booked as 12 return flights, which is the reality, and the T&C it also says that flights can be changed at any time before travel (and implied in this is within the 4 hour window before the flight) on payment of a fee to increase flexibility - which was not offered to me, and as far as I can tell is not offered to customers trying to rebook. Taking the T&C at face value, arguably there is a case for both the outward flight being refunded (as OptionTown did not offer me a rebooking with fee once I had asked them if they could change it), and for as the return flight being refunded (on two bases: that the T&C do not state that flights have to be booked as a return, which suggests I should have been able to book the trip as two single flights in the first place; and on the basis referenced in this thread, that BA refused to protect the return flight when requested).
The immediate questions, however are (i) how likely a CEDR adjudicator or a small claims court judge is likely to agree with Dove v Iberia and apply a similar decision with regard to my return flight, and how likely not; (ii) is a small claims court judge or a CEDR adjudicator more likely to know of or give weight to the Dove v Iberia decision; and (iii) how likely are BA/OptionTown to blink shortly before the hearing?
I guess it's easier to make a legal claim confidently if, like the claimant in Dove v Iberia, one is a lawyer.
I think airlines are morally in the wrong on this. The insistence that coupons are flown in order, and the cancelling of the entire ticket if one sector is not flown, is not really a fair contact term. Eventually consumer rights legislation and shifting will catch up with this - as it largely has in many jurisdictions with regard to delays and cooling off periods. There have been cases about this in the German courts, and it is interesting that BA refer to the situation already being different to allow returns to be protected in Italy.
Having revisited the OptionTown FlightPass T&Cs for the first time since booking the pass a while ago, I am also motivated to contest this by OptionTown's sloppy terms for FlightPass: the invoice and its terms and conditions mention 24 single flights and nowhere in the T&C does it say that this can only be booked as 12 return flights, which is the reality, and the T&C it also says that flights can be changed at any time before travel (and implied in this is within the 4 hour window before the flight) on payment of a fee to increase flexibility - which was not offered to me, and as far as I can tell is not offered to customers trying to rebook. Taking the T&C at face value, arguably there is a case for both the outward flight being refunded (as OptionTown did not offer me a rebooking with fee once I had asked them if they could change it), and for as the return flight being refunded (on two bases: that the T&C do not state that flights have to be booked as a return, which suggests I should have been able to book the trip as two single flights in the first place; and on the basis referenced in this thread, that BA refused to protect the return flight when requested).
The immediate questions, however are (i) how likely a CEDR adjudicator or a small claims court judge is likely to agree with Dove v Iberia and apply a similar decision with regard to my return flight, and how likely not; (ii) is a small claims court judge or a CEDR adjudicator more likely to know of or give weight to the Dove v Iberia decision; and (iii) how likely are BA/OptionTown to blink shortly before the hearing?
Jan 13, 2018, 2:11 am
#21
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So you expect to be able to book ANY fare, then choose which flights to take and in what order? Presumably while retaining the low low fare you got by building the itin departing from XXX....(when you had no intention of starting from there?) That would make those Ex-Europe BA fares even more attractive! Don't you think such a "right" would lead to a radical restructure of fares? And didn't those German cases place NO restrictions on the airline REPRICING the said tickets?
Jan 13, 2018, 2:23 am
#22
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Wondering if anyone came across the updated wording in the contract of carriage for the comment re Italy? I looking thru the ba and aa one but don’t seem to find it.
Has anybody had any success with similar claims against BA? As far as I can see nothing similar has come to court, but has anyone on this board managed to get BA to protect a return, or to refund a cancelled return flight in this situation?
I have a similar situation, although is slightly more complex as it involves an OptionTown FlightPass issued ticket, for which BA cancelled the return after I was unable to fly the outbound. I think this would mean that any formal claim would need to be against both BA and OptionTown.
BA's emailed response to me, in November 2017, was: "There is a new ruling regarding protecting return flights when the outbound isn't used but this is only for tickets sold and originating in Italy. In that instance the customer has to call the airline within 24hrs of the missed flight. In all other scenarios if the outbound flight is down as a 'no show' (ie it is not taken) then the return/onward flights will automatically cancel."
I would be interested to hear others' experiences.
If I were to take this further, do those who have claimed against BA recommend CEDR first or MCOL?
I have a similar situation, although is slightly more complex as it involves an OptionTown FlightPass issued ticket, for which BA cancelled the return after I was unable to fly the outbound. I think this would mean that any formal claim would need to be against both BA and OptionTown.
BA's emailed response to me, in November 2017, was: "There is a new ruling regarding protecting return flights when the outbound isn't used but this is only for tickets sold and originating in Italy. In that instance the customer has to call the airline within 24hrs of the missed flight. In all other scenarios if the outbound flight is down as a 'no show' (ie it is not taken) then the return/onward flights will automatically cancel."
I would be interested to hear others' experiences.
If I were to take this further, do those who have claimed against BA recommend CEDR first or MCOL?
Jan 13, 2018, 3:26 am
#23
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No doubt it would lead to a restructuring. Some people hope that would be a good thing for their hub-hub flights, but law of unexpected consequences, etc is likely to kick in.
I have wondered for example whether airlines might move to a sector plus terminus model. Say Ł500 LHR-NYC fare, and Ł50 DUB-LHR. Then a "port of origin" charge higher for LHR (Ł300) than DUB (Ł20). If you decide to join the itinerary at LHR you get your seat, but have to pay the higher, revised origin charge.
Jan 13, 2018, 4:16 am
#24
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So you expect to be able to book ANY fare, then choose which flights to take and in what order? Presumably while retaining the low low fare you got by building the itin departing from XXX....(when you had no intention of starting from there?) That would make those Ex-Europe BA fares even more attractive! Don't you think such a "right" would lead to a radical restructure of fares? And didn't those German cases place NO restrictions on the airline REPRICING the said tickets?
Jan 13, 2018, 5:40 am
#26
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Jan 13, 2018, 10:06 am
#27
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As a consequence of the German case, when booking on Lufthansa, there is a tick box asking you whether you want to put a restriction on the ticket and flight the coupons in the order they are or if you want to have full flexibility and flight them any way you want. If you choose the second option. it reprices into a full fare Y bucket, which then transform your nice return ABZ-FRA-IAH at 550 EUR into one at 3500 EUR.
Germany has this and it is required by law. But, it goes without saying that there is a cost associated with this and there are many --- I daresay likely the vast vast majorty --- who are quite happy to take the discount for the routing they choose rather than paying full price.
The discussion here is all about the use of discounted tickets which are discounted for a reason. What nobody ought to expect is that carriers will offer full flexibility, e.g. a return costing twice the single and then a full refund of the cancelled single on a ticket which is deeply discounted.
In this example, the passenger receives an 84% discount.
Apr 30, 2019, 4:08 am
#28
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Looks like Which have picked up the baton on this - https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/...-breaking-law/ - be interesting to see if anything comes of it
Apr 30, 2019, 6:33 am
#29
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Looks like Which have picked up the baton on this - https://inews.co.uk/inews-lifestyle/...-breaking-law/ - be interesting to see if anything comes of it
Several airlines, including BA and Flybe, insist flights are not cancelled and no fine is levied if they are informed that a passenger has missed the outbound flight.
Apr 20, 2021, 3:16 pm
#30
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A update on my situation from earlier in the thread. I took BA to CEDR asking for the cash value of the return flight back (a percentage of the FlightPass full cost based on the number of journeys in the FlightPass). Shortly before the matter would have gone to adjudication BA offered me what I was claiming. I hope this helps others in a similar situation (no more FlightPass though, not sure if this is a good thing or not?)