'Which?' target BA for EC261 petition - please sign
Jun 30, 2017, 11:11 pm
#106
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: UK/France
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Posts: 274
The company should only pay you the compensation if you claim it. There is no bending/breaking of EU law in not paying people who do not bother to claim.
The proposal to make compensation payments automatic is unnecessary. It will increase costs for airlines. You highlight my argument perfectly when you say that it affects all airlines equally.
You say "well BA is making Ł1bn+ per year so they can afford to pay compensation or have aircraft standing by, etc.". I say, that's great but airline margins are razor thin and the industry is highly cyclical. Do we really want the likes of flybe and monarch to be driven out of business due to the spiralling cost of regulation? This is bad for passengers, bad for airlines and bad for shareholders.
The proposal to make compensation payments automatic is unnecessary. It will increase costs for airlines. You highlight my argument perfectly when you say that it affects all airlines equally.
You say "well BA is making Ł1bn+ per year so they can afford to pay compensation or have aircraft standing by, etc.". I say, that's great but airline margins are razor thin and the industry is highly cyclical. Do we really want the likes of flybe and monarch to be driven out of business due to the spiralling cost of regulation? This is bad for passengers, bad for airlines and bad for shareholders.
Jun 30, 2017, 11:14 pm
#107
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: UK/France
Programs: BAEC Gold, Hertz Gold, Avis Preferred, Honours Silver, Marriott, Hyatt, IHG
Posts: 274
How about, for a starter, the manner in which they discharge their responsibilities to make you aware of the Regulations by placing a small font, closely typed "notice" behind a box of luggage tags at a check in desk many passengers don't use anyway.
Compare that with the lengths they go to upsell upgrades, hotels and other "add-ons" during the online booking process and in the run up to a flight.
I hope you own a lot of BA shares as to suggest your view is pro-passenger is laughable.
Compare that with the lengths they go to upsell upgrades, hotels and other "add-ons" during the online booking process and in the run up to a flight.
I hope you own a lot of BA shares as to suggest your view is pro-passenger is laughable.
Jul 1, 2017, 12:25 am
#108
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,574
Sorry but I am against this one, we as a society seem to be becoming more and more like the americans who have a blame and claim culture.
The flip side of this would be BA and other providers put up prices to compensate for the dramatic rise in costs. While Which claims to have the interest of consumers, its essentially consumers who are punished for higher prices. Assuming the goverment issued a law requiring they be more proactive, this would affect UK competition with foreign EU and non EU based airlines, Essentially we loose, so if you want to claim you do it yourself or use a company who will take a cut or charge the standard Ł180 fee
P.s Daily Mail will carry any story which makes it look like it has the interest of consumers, it wants to be the new Sun
The flip side of this would be BA and other providers put up prices to compensate for the dramatic rise in costs. While Which claims to have the interest of consumers, its essentially consumers who are punished for higher prices. Assuming the goverment issued a law requiring they be more proactive, this would affect UK competition with foreign EU and non EU based airlines, Essentially we loose, so if you want to claim you do it yourself or use a company who will take a cut or charge the standard Ł180 fee
P.s Daily Mail will carry any story which makes it look like it has the interest of consumers, it wants to be the new Sun
I doubt very much that most cases of claims not being made are due to altruistic attitudes of passengers; I do not know many people who, if told that they could have EUR600 , would say that they didn't want it
Those that are so against receiving compensation can always refuse it or donate to a worthy cause
Jul 1, 2017, 12:28 am
#109
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: London, UK
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 2,275
The only reason for any "dramatic rise in costs" would be the removal of difficulty for people to receive what they are entitled to.
I doubt very much that most cases of claims not being made are due to altruistic attitudes of passengers; I do not know many people who, if told that they could have EUR600 , would say that they didn't want it
I doubt very much that most cases of claims not being made are due to altruistic attitudes of passengers; I do not know many people who, if told that they could have EUR600 , would say that they didn't want it
Jul 1, 2017, 12:34 am
#110
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,574
You are missing the point entirely. The big picture is costs for airlines will increase massively. Whether the current system is fair or necessary is a separate argument. Making it automatic increases costs and has the effect I've repeatedly stated above of potentially reducing competition, putting airlines out of business and having no real impact on punctuality.
The increase is simply to that which the airlines should already be paying.
Jul 1, 2017, 12:45 am
#111
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: London, UK
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 2,275
Im not missing the point that the airline should already be paying these. An argument that since the airline has got away with it for a long time that it is wrong that it is forced to comply, is flawed to me
The increase is simply to that which the airlines should already be paying.
The increase is simply to that which the airlines should already be paying.
You are are looking at it in terms of fairness and theory which is great but practically you aren't looking beyond that as to the practical impact of a fifty fold increase in EC261 costs. How will airlines afford to pay this when oil is $150 a barrel and there is an economic downturn? Not profits because airlines typically are hugely capital intensive beasts that operate on tiny margins even during strong economic cycles. This goes onto ticket prices or airlines go bust, reducing competition. Yet non-EU airlines only pay it on their outbound EU flights so only absorb half the cost versus an EU carrier. Sounds like a great recipe for crippling our own carriers in the face of ever increasing competition from overseas...
Jul 1, 2017, 12:49 am
#112
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Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,574
That it could be a 50fold increase is exactly why I agree with it. I do not believe that 98% of those entitled to compensation are deliberately choosing not to claim it
If the claim level was at a decent percentage, then it would be clear to me that people know what they are allowed to claim and those that are not may well be mainly made up of those not bothered about it
If the airline was required to contact passengers through provided contact methods such as email with a claim form and informing the passengers that they are entitled to compensation and then the passengers had to fill in form and claim, I would class that as ok - but at a minimum the passengers should be fully informed of their rights
As it does state in the regulations
Passengers should be fully informed of their rights in the event of denied boarding and of cancellation or long delay of flights, so that they can effectively exercise their rights.
If the claim level was at a decent percentage, then it would be clear to me that people know what they are allowed to claim and those that are not may well be mainly made up of those not bothered about it
If the airline was required to contact passengers through provided contact methods such as email with a claim form and informing the passengers that they are entitled to compensation and then the passengers had to fill in form and claim, I would class that as ok - but at a minimum the passengers should be fully informed of their rights
As it does state in the regulations
Passengers should be fully informed of their rights in the event of denied boarding and of cancellation or long delay of flights, so that they can effectively exercise their rights.
Jul 1, 2017, 12:50 am
#113
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: London, UK
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 2,275
That it could be a 50fold increase is exactly why I agree with it. I do not believe that 98% of those entitled to compensation are deliberately choosing not to claim it
If the claim level was at a decent percentage, then it would be clear to me that people know what they are allowed to claim and those that are not may well be mainly made up of those not bothered about it
If the claim level was at a decent percentage, then it would be clear to me that people know what they are allowed to claim and those that are not may well be mainly made up of those not bothered about it
Jul 1, 2017, 12:53 am
#114
A FlyerTalk Posting Legend
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 44,574
No - it is called properly compensating passengers
As I did add - the airline is required to fully inform passengers of their rights - sending emails to affected passengers to inform them of their entitlement and where a claim form can be found would be ok to me
As I did add - the airline is required to fully inform passengers of their rights - sending emails to affected passengers to inform them of their entitlement and where a claim form can be found would be ok to me
Jul 1, 2017, 12:54 am
#115
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Provincie Antwerpen, Vlaanderen, België
Programs: MUCCI Gold
Posts: 2,512
Jul 1, 2017, 1:02 am
#116
Join Date: May 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 5,380
I would question whether compensation should be automatic for any airline. Leaving aside logistical considerations such as change of bank account or credit card since original payment, but there needs to be passenger responsibility too. I don't see anything wrong with passengers being required to make their claims, if they would like to receive their compensation. It isn't exactly hard to send an email.
This is also grossly unfair that BA have been singled out here. Which's petition should be for all airlines. What about Virgin? Easyjet? Ryanair?
This is also grossly unfair that BA have been singled out here. Which's petition should be for all airlines. What about Virgin? Easyjet? Ryanair?
Jul 1, 2017, 1:04 am
#117
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,838
Jul 1, 2017, 1:18 am
#118
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: London
Programs: BA Silver
Posts: 114
Now before I make this next statement this isn't directed at anyone in particular. I don't wish to offend or libel anyone.
Those defending BA and wanting to water down/scrap EU261: do you have a vested interest in BA or the airline industry?
As a purely leisure passenger I'm firmly on the side of the consumers, Which and EU261 here. I'd even say it doesn't go far enough but that's probably deeply unpopular around here.
Jul 1, 2017, 1:18 am
#119
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: London, UK
Programs: BAEC
Posts: 2,275
Keep trying
Jul 1, 2017, 1:27 am
#120
Join Date: May 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 5,380
Because, rightly or wrongly, BA isn't being seen in a positive light at the moment. BoB, negative newspaper articles, long haul catering changes and the recent IT meltdown have all contributed to this. I agree that it should be one rule for all though.
Now before I make this next statement this isn't directed at anyone in particular. I don't wish to offend or libel anyone.
Those defending BA and wanting to water down/scrap EU261: do you have a vested interest in BA or the airline industry?
As a purely leisure passenger I'm firmly on the side of the consumers, Which and EU261 here. I'd even say it doesn't go far enough but that's probably deeply unpopular around here.
Now before I make this next statement this isn't directed at anyone in particular. I don't wish to offend or libel anyone.
Those defending BA and wanting to water down/scrap EU261: do you have a vested interest in BA or the airline industry?
As a purely leisure passenger I'm firmly on the side of the consumers, Which and EU261 here. I'd even say it doesn't go far enough but that's probably deeply unpopular around here.
That said, I don't think it is helpful to make such comments on here: it simply creates a culture of division in this community and emphasises any pro-BA or anti-BA split, which in effect you help foster by saying such things.