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'Which?' target BA for EC261 petition - please sign

'Which?' target BA for EC261 petition - please sign

Old Jun 29, 17, 1:00 am
  #16  
 
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I accept that if it were automatic for everyone it would simply add to the ticket cost so perhaps what is actually needed is to penalise any airline that wrongly refuses a claim to make it difficult for the consmuer. So if you make a valid claim the amount payable doubles each time the airline fobs you off, customer services would be much more motivated to only deny claims which genuinely weren't eligible if their bosses knew that each letter or email which incorrectly denied payment would add to the total bill. I guess the one flaw with this is that it is only those in the know i.e. FT'ers that would know to pursue the claim and then what they would finally be entitled to!
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Old Jun 29, 17, 1:06 am
  #17  
 
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Originally Posted by IAN-UK View Post
Impressive analysis


The alternative might be that the airline works that bit harder to avoid delays, cancellations and downgrades. Much as the legislators intended.
They might - but I think we all the know the likely outcome is that airlines would increase their ticket prices in the short term, work to lower delays/cancellations in the medium term and then leave the ticket prices at the higher level.
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Old Jun 29, 17, 1:25 am
  #18  
 
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Ticket price are determined by supply and demand not by the cost of EU261...
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Old Jun 29, 17, 1:33 am
  #19  
 
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Originally Posted by Soupey202 View Post
I accept that if it were automatic for everyone it would simply add to the ticket cost so perhaps what is actually needed is to penalise any airline that wrongly refuses a claim to make it difficult for the consmuer. So if you make a valid claim the amount payable doubles each time the airline fobs you off, customer services would be much more motivated to only deny claims which genuinely weren't eligible if their bosses knew that each letter or email which incorrectly denied payment would add to the total bill. I guess the one flaw with this is that it is only those in the know i.e. FT'ers that would know to pursue the claim and then what they would finally be entitled to!
Your post assumes that it is always black and white whether a claim is 'valid'. It is not. The law is a mess and many cases are borderline. Indeed sometimes the County Court gives a judgment for the airline in one claim, and a judgment against the airline in another claim in respect of the exact same flight.

If the airline believes it has an arguable case it should be entitled to argue it.

The ADR route and the courts do of course provide a process for consumers to argue theirs too.
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Old Jun 29, 17, 1:35 am
  #20  
 
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Originally Posted by Worcester View Post
Ticket price are determined by supply and demand not by the cost of EU261...
The cost of EU261 is part of the cost of supply.
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Old Jun 29, 17, 1:37 am
  #21  
 
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Originally Posted by Worcester View Post
Ticket price are determined by supply and demand not by the cost of EU261...
Yes but if the underlying supply costs increase pretty uniformly for the entire industry then this will impact the price.

I do think that the regs could be improved by penalising airlines who refuse to pay what later turns out to be a legitimate claim. Similar to a parking ticket: pay in 14 days and it's less expensive. You can argue your case but if you lose then you'll pay the full whack.

I also think having some multiplier to penalise airlines for delays that are very significant would be sensible. The attitude seems to be that after 3h there is little incentive for them to reduce the delay as much as possible as comp is due anyway.
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Old Jun 29, 17, 1:44 am
  #22  
 
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Originally Posted by Ldnn1 View Post
The cost of EU261 is part of the cost of supply.

While we agree it is a cost it does not affect the number of seats that an airline flies nor the number of seats other airlines fly, the sum of which is the supply. Increase prices and more of those seats are not paid for.
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Old Jun 29, 17, 1:47 am
  #23  
 
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Originally Posted by Worcester View Post
While we agree it is a cost it does not affect the number of seats that an airline flies nor the number of seats other airlines fly, the sum of which is the supply. Increase prices and more of those seats are not paid for.
Of course it affects that, much like the cost of oil affects that! I think you need to revisit your understanding of supply and demand.
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Old Jun 29, 17, 1:58 am
  #24  
 
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Profitability determines the amount of investment (i.e. the number of aircraft) but also new aircraft are less likely to go tech so I doubt that BA would cut investment.

If BA have the aircraft it has to fill those seats, against competition from other airlines. They supply of seats is thus independent of cost in the short to medium term. And demand is entirely independent of BAs cost.
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Old Jun 29, 17, 1:59 am
  #25  
 
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Originally Posted by Worcester View Post
While we agree it is a cost it does not affect the number of seats that an airline flies nor the number of seats other airlines fly, the sum of which is the supply. Increase prices and more of those seats are not paid for.
So by your theory a tripling of the minimum wage paid to airline workers flying out of the UK would not drive up supply costs at all?
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Old Jun 29, 17, 2:03 am
  #26  
 
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My experiences:

- Paid up the EU261 compensation on two separate occasions when I applied, albeit it took a bit of back-and-forth of me pressing my point before I 'won'.

- Happily refunded my hotel and costs when I was stuck in Berlin for an extra night due to strikes. Didn't have to use my insurance at all.

So generally I've found them pretty reasonable. I've also completely failed in the past to get EU261 money out of Wizzair and Ryanair, but I suppose that's not surprising for LCCs!
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Old Jun 29, 17, 2:04 am
  #27  
 
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Originally Posted by TabTraveller View Post
So by your theory a tripling of the minimum wage paid to airline workers flying out of the UK would not drive up supply costs at all?

No my "theory" is that the price is set by the market, very interested to see any economics textbook which says different for a product like airtravel.
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Old Jun 29, 17, 2:05 am
  #28  
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Originally Posted by SaturdayKid View Post
This could be spectacularly bad news for BA as Which can instigate super-complaints to the Competiton and Markets Authority
The issue of EC261/2004 compensation is one that falls totally outside the remit of the CMA.

The spectacularly bad news is the PR disaster; not that there is any actionable outcome here for the CMA to get involved with.

Last edited by irishguy28; Jun 29, 17 at 2:20 am
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Old Jun 29, 17, 2:11 am
  #29  
 
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Originally Posted by Worcester View Post
No my "theory" is that the price is set by the market, very interested to see any economics textbook which says different for a product like airtravel.
Price isn't a factor that is independent from the underlying costs of supply as you seem to be suggesting. A mandatory automatic payout system would increase operating costs for all airlines substantially.
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Old Jun 29, 17, 2:16 am
  #30  
 
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I made a BA claim for a delayed LHR - IAH flight and got the correct compensation paid into my bank account within 10 days of starting the claim process. (just last month)

No quibble, no challenge, just correct compensation for a plane that went tech with an engine oil seal leak. Delay was 3 1/2 hours so 300. They also offered 30,000 avios which I declined.

There was a guy on the flight though who really made it his mission to spread the word, he went round many many people at the gate telling them they would all get 600 if they made a claim, however they all would get the 300 as I did.
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